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Basic Training |
How hard is it for CG Aviators to get station of choice, and how long do you usually spend in one place? |
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Experienced Member |
You will have to wait in line for Traverse City. The line forms behind me!
 In all truth, we have a better chance of getting where we want to go than what you experienced in the Army however, there are still needs of the service. About two years ago we did a huge reorganization to support some altered missions and airframes which is still carrying over to this year's transfer season and will affect station choices for years to come. You said you fly "M" model H-60s. We are just coming on line with "T" model H-60s which I believe, by my reading, are very similar. This of course wouldn't guarantee you would get H-60s but if the CG needs H-60 pilots when DCA H-60 pilots come over they fill those slots first. I am trying to think back and I don't know one H-60 DCA that flew a different airframe prior. But I know tons of H-65 pilots that were prior H-60 guys. Point being, they fill the limited H-60 spots with H-60 experience and the H-65 is a free for all. So if you want Traverse city you first have to get into the right airframe. Then it is all luck of the draw. Every Airstation is currently being pushed to have 50% Aircraft Commanders and 50% Nuggets (new guys). So if your name comes up and they are short new guys at Traverse city, you fit the bill and you are in. However, if you ask for there and they just finished the summer transfer season, you will most likely be offered somewhere else. In all honesty, I have been to nearly every air station in the Coast Guard and there isn't a bad one. Which lead to the next question. How long do you stay in one place. The straight answer is four years. However, there are two exceptions. Puerto Rico and Kodiak, AK. You won't have to worry about Kodiak starting off if you get H-65s as only Aircraft Commanders are allowed to go there. Puerto Rico is a three year tour and Kodiak is two for H-65s and three for H-60s. You can also do a short tour (one year less if you get selected for specific programs) or extend (one additional year) at a duty station if you really like it and they still want you there. Station of Choice used to be really easy. Go to Kodiak, Polar Opeations, or Puerto Rico and bam your next station was yours for the taking. Now you have Kodiak, Puerto Rico, Atlantic City, Jacksonville, and New Orleans all on the hardship list and the waters are muddied a bit. But as I was told directly from the detailers, "If you are a true performer, you have a good chance at getting where you want to go no matter where you are currently stationed." Of course that only works once you are already in. Good luck. |
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Experienced Member |
I developed a very healthy respect for Army pilots while I was in Iraq, especially those flying the Sherpas at about zero feet......
Loved the guys in the Catfish Brigade! Some had flown in Nam, at least two were about 60 years old. |
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Member |
A friend of mines wife is a helo pilot for the MN ANG. She told me a story once about some joint training they had with the CG once down south. It was a cold, rainy day and there was a training mission scheduled. The army pilot were all gathered around the weather computer looking at the wx system that was passing through, debating on a go/no-go. She said the Coasties walked in and asked what was going on. She told them that they were looking at the wx to see if they were going to go or not. She said the coasties walked over to the window, looked out at the rain coming down, kind of chuckled and said, "Boats don't sink on blue-bird days. Let's light the fires." She said that's when she developed the most respect for the CG. Not to mention the time she went rocking and rolling on the moter lifeboat.
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Basic Training |
We had a helicopter crash, with the whole crew lost, about 4 months ago because they failed to huddle around a computer making a go/no-go decision. I realize your story is more of a parable about the CG Mission, but a cavalier attitude towards weather doesn't impress this aviator. And I'm betting that most the CG guys would agree. |
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Member |
Yep, I agree. Just passing on the story she told me. As a pilot myself, I understand the importance of a good pre-flight brief and obtaining all available info before a flight to make that go/no-go decission. Who knows, maybe the coasties anticipated a little, got their info from a different source, so they could go into the room and mess with the others a bit. I hope that was the case. |
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CG Forums Moderator Mom never liked you, you son of a...  |
The CG has an official motto (Semper Paratus - Always Ready), and an unofficial motto (You have to go out, you don't have to come back). In other words, Coasties will go out in inclement weather to save somebody's life that most folks would never ever consider venturing out into. Nothing cavalier about it, just the way it is... |
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Member |
Yup.....never hurts to look at the 'puter before leaving. However, leaving is easy.....the trick seems to be getting back in to where you just left.  |
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Experienced Member |
Take off is optional, landing is manatory. I think if you look at the number of class A mishapes you would have to agree that the Army pilots are flying in a more hazardouse invironment. For the 3 years that I was flying as a mech in Alaska 79-81 the CG had 6 helo class A mishapes. It was a very dangerouse time to be flying in H3's & 52.
You could not get me to fly in an Army H47/CH47/CH53 high and hot in Afganistan. 11 class A,B & C mishapes over the last 5 years. Peace, Dick This message has been edited. Last edited by: asm3driscoll, |
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Experienced Member |
The amount of class A accidents has nothing to do with the type of environment. Both services have the opportunity to fly in extremely hazardous environments. Environments that the other service finds insane. That transfers to all services by the way. I have crunched military safety statistics for about 15 years and it always adds up pretty much the same. If you look at pure mishaps, the Army is far ahead in class A mishaps to any service. Why? Because they have far more aircraft than any other service. By the way, combat losses don't count toward that rate in any service so any stats you see are not due to shootdown. If you look at the standard which is mishaps per 100,000 hours, the Army is still ahead. But not by much. Minds greater than me have looked over these numbers and this is what has been found. The Army and Marine Corps are usually highest in the mishap rates while the CG usually has the lowest. There are three reasons. Training, ORM (Operational Risk Management), and cost of the airframe. In truth, when I was in the Army we did do some crazy stuff. NOE was excellent fun and blowing stuff up was always a hoot and could be pretty dangerous. But if you take combat out of the equation which is what the safety stats do, they were relatively controlled situations. Training will keep you from browning out in an LZ or clipping the trees. Just like training can keep you from going into the drink when trying to hover at night over the water. The one complaint I had about Army aviation was the training. The Army has great pilots but the training and flyng is inconsistent which leads to a lot of mishaps. Remember the two Apaches that crashed in Bosnia around 1998? The unit was stationed in Germany where they were not allowed to fly from Midnight to sunrise. This gave pilots about 1 hour of "pinky time" to fly at night in the summer and pilots got to fly maybe once every week in those conditions if they were lucky. For most it was about once a month. They got to Bosnia right after summer, and immediately started flying in the mountains at night. Not the best way to spool back up. They ended up with two class A's. Not because of the environment as every pilot there had been comfortable in those conditions at one point and could easily operate in those conditions. All services go through a great deal of selection to get good pilots and every service does a great job weeding out most of the bad eggs. The pilots in Bosnia didn't crash because they were bad pilots or because they were in a hazardous environment, They crashed because training and risk management was set aside because of some leader's ego. I saw it so many times in my Army career I stopped counting. That is the difference between Army and CG aviation. Sorry, but safety is a passion and I have hard feelings about the ego's of some of the commanders in the Army leading directly to the death of good friends because training be damned they were going to get thier missions complete. I also have no place in my psychi for hearing people say people crash because of hazardous conditions. They don't. They crash because they exceeded their capabilities in those conditions. I'll get off my soap box now. |
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Experienced Member |
As for the weather, I will share my Army vs Coast Guard weather story. We had an Army unit new to the NW ask if they could come to our unit to look around and have some lunch. We thought it would be great and we enoyed their company. They didn't stay for lunch however because they thought the weather was pretty bad.
We looked at the exact same weather brief and saw the weather was going to be a little harsh but not too bad. So we kind of had a chuckle as they raced through preflight to beat the weather and scoot. We had a flight casually going out on a trainer in the weather that they were trying to escape. Nobody was cavalier although the Army thought we were insane. We are just used to operating in different conditions. |
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Basic Training |
I agree with your comments about Army training. Specifically in regards to weather.
Despite all the emphasis on the dangers of IIMC, it seems to me that the Army is very risk adverse when it comes to IFR training. Very few pilots are happy to go out training in true IMC. We also rarely discuss or practice going "advertent IMC" while out scud-running. Many of the IIMC accidents could have been prevented if the pilots had just committed and climbed well before the windshield went white; people are unlikely to do this if they never practice it. |
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Experienced Member |
I was aware that most of those class A's, B, C's were high and hot brown outs in Afganistan. I also believe that because they fly a lot more in unison with other aircraft that its increases there risk of a mishap during flight. Also when you are flying out to save your own (army) the operational risk management bar might be set a little higher.
There is an interesting blog entry from one of the pilots that put down last week in the mountains of afganistan with the senators on board. He was actually carrying the senators aids on his aircraft but the weather shut them down, they came very close to going in-advertant IMC, and the arizona national guard came in and secured the area , half evacuated the senators and the other half stayed and secured the area around the helo's till they could get airborn again. Said they conserved fuel by shutting down the APU and things got very dark and cold for a while. There were 100 natives around the area but no one was firing at them which was nice. They also had some fighter jets and predators flying support over the aircraft. I guess thats the kind of excitement I was talking about in the ARMY. I only flew in formation a couple of times but I remember not liking it very much and thinking if one of the aircraft encounted a control problem or decided to come apart the other one was not in a very good position to avoid also being a part of the mishap. I also only flew one time above 10,000 feet in a helo and didn't really enjoy that too much as well, and thankfully I never performed any SAR on any of my fellow aircrews or shipmates though I had friends on the giving and recieving ends of those missions as well. Its just my opinion. Peace, Dick This message has been edited. Last edited by: asm3driscoll, |
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Experienced Member |
I remain convinced you're all nuts.
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Member |
It's my wifes fault, I told her the sky was falling and I want pancakes, but nooooooooo... she would'nt listen to reason..........lol
chapwood.................  This message has been edited. Last edited by: chapwood, |
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Basic Training |
You guys did it now, you got Tankkllr to get onto his safety soap box.
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Experienced Member |
In the old days we were all a bit cavalier and cowboyish. Some pilots wore cowboy boots and most mech's carried a peace protector.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: asm3driscoll, |
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Basic Training |
If you don't mind an observation from outside the pilot community: during my time as Avionics Officer in Sitka, (83-87) we had 4 ex - Army pilots who were DCA's. All of them were super folks, darn good pilot's and they seemed to enjoy the differences they experienced being in the CG. I know this is from some time back but hope it helps with your decision.....Regards,...Bill
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Basic Training |
Are you able to become a helo pilot in the USCG with no previous flight training under your belt, or do you have to have some experience from another service branch or civilian training?
If you don't have any does the USCG train new pilots or do they prefer some with experience? |
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