RE: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,182497,00.html


"When we torture or condone torture or practice rendition, it puts a giant, unnecessary target on the backs of our men and women fighting overseas...."

Really? I didn't realize this was the reason hostages are tortured and killed by the enemy in the Middle East. I will have to remember this when I see the video of the next hostage having his/her head sawn off with a knife while the enemy cheers and dances.

I wonder how many Americians will die because of this choice? I also wonder how many foreign friends will die because of this choice?

I have no doubt that Turner and Carter would approve of this chocie. But they didn't care much about Americans and even less about foreign friends.

quote:

"When we torture or condone torture or practice rendition, it puts a giant, unnecessary target on the backs of our men and women fighting overseas...."

Where do people like this come from? Do they not think that they would kill us just because who we are?
The target is already on our back because we are who we are as Anericans and he tries to make some excuse for the enemy behavior. He is a weak excuse as a "military person" and the type that should have gone to Canada but he would be returned. Only person I know from Vietnam that was like this, was jfkerry and wade sanders.

Of course the author is correct, he understands the law, which has existed for a long time, and has been upheld by the US Ct, granting the GITMO detainees rights. Also as a professional he understands the complexity of war, unlike some sophomoric wits, that babble inanely Dr. Strangelove ethos...get a grip, the courts have spoken, the country has spoken--torture is not allowed just because Shooter Cheney and his wacky posse say it is. What a ludicrous standard...because the enemy does it we can do it? Utterly pathetic. If we felt it was a deterrence then we should have publicized it, but it was because of our shame and fear against prosecution that renditions occurred and people were tortured behind closed doors.

Get out of the gutter, dust yourselves off, the debate is over, torture doesn't work and it is illegal, what's next for these masochists that reside in the bizarro neo con wilderness...flag burning? Yippee, rally around the---flag....?

I'd like to know what torture the US ever condoned? Waterboarding? If Haj has to FEEL like he's drowning for a little bit to save 1 American life it's worth it in my book! I mean it's not like we're cutting heads off with dull knives.... I'll bet my whole fortune that these animals won't want to kill us any less cuz of this BS NObama is promoting! I can't believe in these times America voted this man into power. Appeasement worked well for Billy boy!

Well, you've got less than two weeks to believe it before he is actually sworn-in as our 44th President.

There are a couple passages in the Bible, and I paraphrase; "When you do this to the least of my bretheren, you do it to me", and: "When you break one of the commandments, you have broken them all".

By the way... the pictures of abuse and torture were on parade before both houses of Congress when they held hearings on "Torture" at Gitmo, like 3 years ago?
You may be the only person never to see these tortured souls before, (with an American standing over them laughing about it). And that is only the well publicized and well documented cases of abuse.

Torture is against the law. Prisoner abuse is against the law(in both Civilian and Military life). We have signed treaties claiming we do not do that sort of thing, but we have and we do, just as long as Gitmo exists.

Gitmo will be closed before Apr. 1st. Good riddance.

quote:

Originally posted by SwiftBoatSailor:

quote:

"When we torture or condone torture or practice rendition, it puts a giant, unnecessary target on the backs of our men and women fighting overseas...."

Where do people like this come from? Do they not think that they would kill us just because who we are?
The target is already on our back because we are who we are as Anericans and he tries to make some excuse for the enemy behavior. He is a weak excuse as a "military person" and the type that should have gone to Canada but he would be returned. Only person I know from Vietnam that was like this, was jfkerry and wade sanders.

That is #2 persons, and you don't "Know" either of them.

"When we torture or condone torture or practice rendition, it puts a giant, unnecessary target on the backs of our men and women fighting overseas -- and it makes locals far less likely to cooperate. So instead of simply fighting those who hate us regardless of our policies, we end up creating new enemies. And the cycle churns to deadly effect. Simply put, as soldiers, it makes our jobs harder."

The MSM who hates America and loathes the U.S. Soldier has repeatedly propogated to the four corners of the world that the U.S. unfairly treats Prisoners of War; give them an equal share of the blame for making Americans targets worldwide. Also blame the traitors who leaked this "news" to the press.

It really is interesting how so many critics of "TORTURE" and "PRISONER ABUSE" seem to be from the great US Airforce , I suppose that staying in country for three to six months at a time and never getting dirty , unless you count falling from the steps of your CHU as hitting the dirt . It makes me appreciate all my brothers in combat arms even more than I already do . And loathe people that don't understand that situations arise in a combat zone everyday and that the world is not a perfect place , and rules and laws are sometimes broken( GASP ) .

I really thought the topic of torture here on the board had already been beaten to death in past threads on the same subject. Sadly, all this administration has produced here in the US are a group of nationalists...as opposed to patriots.

Nationalistic feeling always leads to a country steping beyond the bounds of decency, patriotism doesn't. Patriots defend the tenets of the Founding of our Nation, nationalists would destroy all that has come before, patriots will sacrifice their lives if required to defend the heritage left to America by those who went before us. Those who authorize, condone, participate in or torture any individual are not patriots but nationalists possessed of a warped ideology that will certainly be a part of our Nations failing if we allow it to continue.

So to all you nationalists out there, continue to believe torture is now part and parcel of the defense of America...it is just another seed being planted that will destroy America. Misplaed anger will nearly always lead to poor judgement and mistakes in decision making...and in a war, the result is generally more death and maiming of our own when anger is the guiding principle.

S/F Gordon

This guy not only has a polictical agenda, he his also shooting for a position for himself in the political field. From what I understand, waterboarding was used only on some top AlQuida people, not a general practice. AlQuida is trained to resist interagations, and this was the most affective way to break them while the information thay had was fresh and useable. Iam not for torture, but in the case of these beasts that they captured, I have no problem with them using waterboarding.

Bill_Fold"Well, you've got less than two weeks to believe it before he is actually sworn-in as our 44th President.

There are a couple passages in the Bible, and I paraphrase; "When you do this to the least of my bretheren, you do it to me", and: "When you break one of the commandments, you have broken them all".

By the way... the pictures of abuse and torture were on parade before both houses of Congress when they held hearings on "Torture" at Gitmo, like 3 years ago?
You may be the only person never to see these tortured souls before, (with an American standing over them laughing about it). And that is only the well publicized and well documented cases of abuse.

Torture is against the law. Prisoner abuse is against the law(in both Civilian and Military life). We have signed treaties claiming we do not do that sort of thing, but we have and we do, just as long as Gitmo exists.

Gitmo will be closed before Apr. 1st. Good riddance."

If your talking about pictures of the evil US shoving bamboo shoots underneath finger nails or putting these animals in Iron Maidens or flogging them or shooting them in the legs, you know, real torture pictures ,please, by all means provide the link! If your talking about the lame Gitmo pics of some poor "tortured soul" having underwear put on their heads and the evil American Soldier standing with a dog laughing, you go ahead and keep em! So please tell me where I can find a link that proves big evil America tortures POW's! Your off your rocker if what happened down there was torture!! These same sick, demented islamo fascists wouldn't hesitate to chop your head off and parade around with it in the streets of Baghdad! Save your pacifist posts for the Daily Kos or the Huffington Post! You pansy liberals keep calling for the closure of Gitmo but once it's closed where do you cage these animals? How about we open a half way house on your block and move these people in? Thats sounds great! You guys can show them love and give out free hugs and skip through meadows of flowers and pretty soon you will turn these people from killers who would just as soon blow up a school full of children to tye dye wearing peace loving hippies!

quote:

Originally posted by jackthelad:
"When we torture or condone torture or practice rendition, it puts a giant, unnecessary target on the backs of our men and women fighting overseas -- and it makes locals far less likely to cooperate. So instead of simply fighting those who hate us regardless of our policies, we end up creating new enemies. And the cycle churns to deadly effect. Simply put, as soldiers, it makes our jobs harder."

The MSM who hates America and loathes the U.S. Soldier has repeatedly propogated to the four corners of the world that the U.S. unfairly treats Prisoners of War; give them an equal share of the blame for making Americans targets worldwide. Also blame the traitors who leaked this "news" to the press.

No one on this site has yet been able to point out where the mean ol' MSM "loaths the U.S. Soldier". Can you provide such a reference?

The US - like it or not - did unfairly treat POWs in Abu Garaib(sp), and there were many pictures released that proved it. Lamentably, the practices that were approved came from the highest levels of our government, while the SAME "techniques" got numerous highly placed individuals of the former axis powers put to death for condoning the same.

How do you feel about "traitors" that out the name of active CIA operatives? I can tell you how George Herbert Walker Bush felt about them: He said that anyone that knowingly outs the name of an active CIA operative is "the most insidious form of traitor..."

The incumbant administration's management of the war in Iraq, according to the National Intelligence Estimate (the unanimous opinion of all 16 of our national intelligence agencies) is that we are now far less secure that we would've been otherwise, and that the prosecution of the GWOT has only made things worse.

A shame indeed...

Misanthrope2 I am trying to get the definition of torture. I want to know how you or Bill_Fold or whoever would define it. Some say loud music is torture, I disgree! Show me the proof that the US has participated in torture. I would hardly call putting underwear on someones head torture but I do agree with PolicyWonk that it was mistreatment. Where in my post am I saying this country SHOULD torture people!! I would appreciate it if you didn't ad lib or put words in my mouth!! What kill em all attitude are you refering too,reread my post and tell me where you got this from? And how would you know anything about my attitude to tell me I need to adjust it before I deploy? You don't,so don't throw out accusations! Stick to what I wrote in the post. And yes I have deployed so I have an idea!

PS. Google "Nick Berg" and that should give you an idea how the "demented Islamofascist" treats Americans and that's just 1 example!!

POSH AND PISTOSH! POPPYCOCK! ********! I CALL WEARING LADIES PANTIES ON MY FACE FOREPLAY. THE PROBLEM WITH THIS WHOLE PREOSITION IS THAT IF THIS IS THE CASE HOW COME AMERICAN CITIZENS DIDN'T SHOW UP IN THE MIDDLE EAST IN DROVES TO WAGE AN INSURGENCY WHEN THE BEHEADING VIDEOS HIT THE NET? THE DIFFERENCE IS THE US VERSUS THEM MENTALITY OF THE MUSLIM FAITH. ISREAL KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT BEING NICE TO THESE *******S MEANS. EVENTUALLY YOU GOTTA GO BACK AND CLEAN OUT THEIR NESTS FROM WHICH THEY LAUNCH CHICKEN**** SNEAK ATTACKS.

for the past 8 years Mr. Panetta has been a TV political hack. his back ground has no intel experence, even if he was a Clinton chief of staff.

Thank You Brandon Friedman. Leon Panetta ( Vietnam Veteran) will be a great CIA chief. In two weeks finally, a break from the "tough guys" with their "bring 'em on" false bravado while the real killers of 9/11 are still living it up in their hideouts will be hittin' the bricks. Good riddance to foul garbage. Thanks for bringing up Matthew Alexander's words about how the use of torture harmed the war effort. Words of truth like that are like holy water sprayed on vampires, just look at some of the hissy fits the rightwingers are having on this thread

And when its gets too hot to handle one of them will squeal to one of the moderators and freeze the discussion.Right EAG? sniff



Just in case any of you need to be reminded of just whom respects the Military... heres the Purple Heart Bandaid "Lady"!

The notion that responding in kind to illegal and immoral acts of torture somehow is a signal of strength, and would cause our enemies to pause when considering their own actions, is absurd. Even more absurd is the rationalization that I continue to see posted here, that it is okay for us to act like barbarians (not that we do) because we are Americans and hence have been granted supreme authority to tell everybody else to do as I say not as I do.

Understand this, I do not advocate that we as Americans turn the other cheek when dealing with those that would destroy our way of life, to the contrary we should use all our power to exterminate them. Our power is vested not only in military might, but the rule of law and the moral example we as Americans set. When we lose this... we lose all. After all, if we are going to act in the same fashion as those we fight, than why bother to fight... we have become one of them.

I would give my life today to ensure my children and grandchildrens freedom and happiness, and to protect and preserve the rule of law which is the hallmark of our democracy.

Where did this guy come from? I would have figured after serving in combat, this young soldier wouldn't be wet behind the ears, but I guess he still thinks like a butter bar who never learned anything from the senior enlisted corps or his own mentors.

He fails to show us where torture is part of US policy? I haven't read a DoD directive or field manual that directs or authorizes torture? Have people done some wrong things? Sure, but it doesn't make it institutionalized just because a few bad apples acted wrongly.

Also, he states we are only being attacked, because we tortured people. Who were we torturing when 9/11 happened? Why did they attack us if we weren't torturing anyone?

I wonder what this "do-gooder" would decide if he had to make a decision of "torturing" one person in order to save thousands of lives. What is ethically correct? Let people die or making sure a terrorist gets his double mocha carmel machiatto latte and scones after daily prayers.

Let me think, how many times in the all our last military conflicts that we, as the USA have been involved in that where signatures of the Geneva Convention fwe battles and they have followed it in every measure. Not Germany nor Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanastan or any other conflict. I do not care if the USA is the most popular Country in the World or have the most moral clause or mortality. To Bill Bold, sitting on a carrier you can thing of all the moral questions about war.
And Bill your question of my statement about
"Only person I know from Vietnam that was like this, was jfkerry and wade sanders.


That is #2 persons, and you don't "Know" either of them."
Yes I know them at our reunions and the first will never be POTUS and the second has pleady guilty of Computer Child Porn. So guess you do not know s$$t