RE: http://www.military.com/featur...15240,192225,00.html
If the VH-71 is truly an advancement in efficiency & protection for the transport of the President & his staff; then it needs to be more seriously considered. I am no expert, but it would seem that if the companies involved in its development & building can show a wider flexibility & diversity in this helo's applications & use by others & allies; then it may be able to demonstrate a larger volume of future sales, thus show a significantly less costly product that would be more attractive to often cash strapped budgets of the end users. Anyway, just a thought on this matter....

The lobbyist are counting their money. This bird is too expensive and is just not a priority. Gates made the correct decision.

Why does the Presidents Helicopter need a Bathroom and Galley?, there was so much "gold plating" for a Chopper that usually is in the air less than 30 minutes for most of it's flights.

It is a Proven airframe but they kept monkeying around with the design, New Blades, New gearboxes, Luxury appurtanances. No wonder it was horrifically over budget.

Why don't we just use a V-22 Osprey variant for the job instead of relying on a helicopter of European (the VH-71 is an "Americanized" Agusta/Westland AW101) origin?

Not only would the Osprey be faster and longer ranged (not to mention the airframe is already in our inventory and operation), but we wouldn't have to worry about spare parts sourcing - and we'd be using an American aircraft for the job.

V-22
Max Speed 305kts
Max Range 879 nm
Service Ceiling 26,000ft

VH-71
Max Speed 167kts
Max Range 750nm
Service Ceiling 15,000ft

I agree with PhoenixDark, our elected idiots should not selected any aircraft from a foreign country. We are letting our government destroy this country. We can't drill our own oil, we can't make our own military equipment. We pay another country for our needs while our unemployment is climbing. We are buying the phony CO2 emmisions BS.. We really let the world know how stupid we last November!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 9956881,

quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixDark:
Why don't we just use a V-22 Osprey variant for the job instead of relying on a helicopter of European (the VH-71 is an "Americanized" Agusta/Westland AW101) origin?

Not only would the Osprey be faster and longer ranged (not to mention the airframe is already in our inventory and operation), but we wouldn't have to worry about spare parts sourcing - and we'd be using an American aircraft for the job.

V-22
Max Speed 305kts
Max Range 879 nm
Service Ceiling 26,000ft

VH-71
Max Speed 167kts
Max Range 750nm
Service Ceiling 15,000ft

VERY GOOD POINT PD

There might be a good reason they didn't go with the Osprey.

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:
There might be a good reason they didn't go with the Osprey.

Can you let us in on why? If you don't know I understand, cause I don't know either.

But as PD mentioned, the Osprey does seem to outdue the VH - 71 in every way.

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:
There might be a good reason they didn't go with the Osprey.

My guess is that somebody wasn't thinking "outside the box" - i.e. Marine One is a helicopter and should be replaced with a helicopter is what was likely going through their minds.

I suspect to some degree politics played a part in the decision - i.e. the Europeans wanted us to by some of the Merlins to help offset the cost out of their pocket to develop them.

The same holds true for the Osprey though - the more we buy, the lower the unit cost.

The Osprey has about the same amount of interior space as the Merlin, so that wasn't a factor, nor was footprint (the amount of space needed to land one) as the Osprey can operate in less space than the SeaKing it would replace.

The only thing that the Merlin does better than the Osprey is in terms of noise - the Merlin is a few dB quieter than the Osprey.

quote:

Originally posted by L0A1:

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:
There might be a good reason they didn't go with the Osprey.

Can you let us in on why? If you don't know I understand, cause I don't know either.

But as PD mentioned, the Osprey does seem to outdue the VH - 71 in every way.

I don't really know but I think the Osprey doesn't do well on an engine-out and that precludes it from being the President's sled.

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:

quote:

Originally posted by L0A1:

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:
There might be a good reason they didn't go with the Osprey.

Can you let us in on why? If you don't know I understand, cause I don't know either.

But as PD mentioned, the Osprey does seem to outdue the VH - 71 in every way.

I don't really know but I think the Osprey doesn't do well on an engine-out and that precludes it from being the President's sled.

Many twin engine aircraft have seriously impaired performance on one engine - and engine failure in them is usually grounds for an emergency landing - including the Merlin.

The Osprey's rotors are interconnected so that one engine can power both rotors in the event of an engine failure - this allows the Osprey to land safely on one engine.

quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixDark:
Why don't we just use a V-22 Osprey variant for the job instead of relying on a helicopter of European (the VH-71 is an "Americanized" Agusta/Westland AW101) origin?

Not only would the Osprey be faster and longer ranged (not to mention the airframe is already in our inventory and operation), but we wouldn't have to worry about spare parts sourcing - and we'd be using an American aircraft for the job.

V-22
Max Speed 305kts
Max Range 879 nm
Service Ceiling 26,000ft

VH-71
Max Speed 167kts
Max Range 750nm
Service Ceiling 15,000ft

Can the Osprey land on the lawn of the White House? (I really don't know.) That might be an operational constraint.

quote:

Originally posted by Motive25:

quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixDark:
Why don't we just use a V-22 Osprey variant for the job instead of relying on a helicopter of European (the VH-71 is an "Americanized" Agusta/Westland AW101) origin?

Not only would the Osprey be faster and longer ranged (not to mention the airframe is already in our inventory and operation), but we wouldn't have to worry about spare parts sourcing - and we'd be using an American aircraft for the job.

V-22
Max Speed 305kts
Max Range 879 nm
Service Ceiling 26,000ft

VH-71
Max Speed 167kts
Max Range 750nm
Service Ceiling 15,000ft

Can the Osprey land on the lawn of the White House? (I really don't know.) That might be an operational constraint.

That it can - and do so in less space than the current Marine One (a SeaKing derivative).

Just stick that damn Obama in an AirForce MH-53 Special Ops helicopter and call it a damn day...Mini-guns, .50cals...suicidal pilots

quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixDark:

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:
There might be a good reason they didn't go with the Osprey.

My guess is that somebody wasn't thinking "outside the box" - i.e. Marine One is a helicopter and should be replaced with a helicopter is what was likely going through their minds.

I suspect to some degree politics played a part in the decision - i.e. the Europeans wanted us to by some of the Merlins to help offset the cost out of their pocket to develop them.

The same holds true for the Osprey though - the more we buy, the lower the unit cost.

The Osprey has about the same amount of interior space as the Merlin, so that wasn't a factor, nor was footprint (the amount of space needed to land one) as the Osprey can operate in less space than the SeaKing it would replace.

The only thing that the Merlin does better than the Osprey is in terms of noise - the Merlin is a few dB quieter than the Osprey.

How Big an LZ is needed for an Osprey vs, a Helo might have something to do with that.

It'd also not capable of Auto rotation like a normal Helo, and gliding it like a fixed wing is probably wishful thinking as the wing surface area isnt much compared to a C-123, C-130, etc.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, the V22 Kicks up a Lot more debris/dust when in hover landing mode than a helo of comparitive size.

Another issue might be proven reliability. Osprey is relatively new and unproven compared to standard helo technology. They may not want to risk the life of the POTUS in a new type of a/c.

quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixDark:
Why don't we just use a V-22 Osprey variant for the job instead of relying on a helicopter of European (the VH-71 is an "Americanized" Agusta/Westland AW101) origin?

Not only would the Osprey be faster and longer ranged (not to mention the airframe is already in our inventory and operation), but we wouldn't have to worry about spare parts sourcing - and we'd be using an American aircraft for the job.

V-22
Max Speed 305kts
Max Range 879 nm
Service Ceiling 26,000ft

VH-71
Max Speed 167kts
Max Range 750nm
Service Ceiling 15,000ft

Phoenix,

My knowledge of aircraft is very limited; however, your recommendation and stats seem to make a lot of sense! Well said.

Jack

quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixDark:

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:

quote:

Originally posted by L0A1:

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:
There might be a good reason they didn't go with the Osprey.

Can you let us in on why? If you don't know I understand, cause I don't know either.

But as PD mentioned, the Osprey does seem to outdue the VH - 71 in every way.

I don't really know but I think the Osprey doesn't do well on an engine-out and that precludes it from being the President's sled.

Many twin engine aircraft have seriously impaired performance on one engine - and engine failure in them is usually grounds for an emergency landing - including the Merlin.

The Osprey's rotors are interconnected so that one engine can power both rotors in the event of an engine failure - this allows the Osprey to land safely on one engine.

I'm familiar with twin engine logic. The other engine will fly you directly to the crash site. Engine out on an Osprey? I'm sure that's the plan but I'm wondering how many have actually done that. I know people have died trying. If a chopper loses all engines it can autorotate and that's why a lot of chopper pilots are still with us. No dice on the Osprey. When they shipped 'em to Iran, they were kept out of any type of action where there was a remote chance they could be shot at. I just get the impression that a lot of people just don't trust it very much. I know that's about the last aircraft I'd want to ride into a hot LZ. It's not heavily armed and it's not exactly RPG proof. I think if you lose one during transition you had best have great karma. Also, it's speed makes it faster than any gunship we've got so it's going to present some problems - or should I say "new challenges". I wouldn't want to get somewhere first in one those that needed some gunship love.

quote:

Originally posted by Motive25:
Another issue might be proven reliability. Osprey is relatively new and unproven compared to standard helo technology. They may not want to risk the life of the POTUS in a new type of a/c.

The famed UH-1 Huey once (early in it's career) had serious reliability issues - we lost more in Vietnam to accidents than to enemy fire. Those issues got resolved and the aircraft had a long and honorable service life. I suspect that time will prove the same of the Osprey.

quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixDark:

quote:

Originally posted by Motive25:
Another issue might be proven reliability. Osprey is relatively new and unproven compared to standard helo technology. They may not want to risk the life of the POTUS in a new type of a/c.

The famed UH-1 Huey once (early in it's career) had serious reliability issues - we lost more in Vietnam to accidents than to enemy fire. Those issues got resolved and the aircraft had a long and honorable service life. I suspect that time will prove the same of the Osprey.

The operative word being "time". A veteran Vietnam-era aviator once told me that, by the end of the war, the Army had put so many hours on Hueys and stressed them in so many ways, that they knew down to a "gnat's behind" how the Huey could perform, when parts would fail and so forth.

We do not have that kind of data on the Osprey yet.