RE: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,182297,00.html

I won't disagree with his conclusions. In fact, I endorse them whole-heartedly, though I'm not holding my breath for it to happen.

But, a future politician? I sure hope not as he's too old now and would only serve to get in the way of the younger generation who are taking the reins of power.

I respect this guy's sacrificail service to our nation, but he's way over-the-top on his call for charges & the like to be brought against Pres Bush. Torture is what the jihadists do to our their captives! The treatment we give these enemy combatants is 'harsh' at worst!!! We don't 'torture'... hazing, maybe... but torture??? NO!!!!

This guy is way off base. He is the type of guy that wants us to abide by the rules and regulations of war that we created and in the mean time our troops are being killed, tortured, and and god knows what else when they are captive. Give me a break!!! Maybe you should go back in and get captured and see the abuse our guys take when in the custody of the enemy.

It is people like this that make this country weak. Why should we follow all these stupid rules and watch the rest of the world laugh at us for doing it.

The problem with the people in this country is we are too soft on the enemy. If we took a stronger stance then maybe half these hole in the wall countries would straighten up and realize we won't tolerate any type of terrorism or WMD anywhere!!!

quote:

Originally posted by JTBOWLING:
I respect this guy's sacrificail service to our nation, but he's way over-the-top on his call for charges & the like to be brought against Pres Bush. Torture is what the jihadists do to our their captives! The treatment we give these enemy combatants is 'harsh' at worst!!! We don't 'torture'... hazing, maybe... but torture??? NO!!!!

Totally agree with you the author has earned in spades the right to speak on this subject. On the other hand, I agree with the 100% on everything else the author wrote as well.
Once again, for review:
(per Merriam-Webster.com) torture 1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
(per American Heritage Dictionary) torture 1a. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. b. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain. 2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense. 3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
(as "waterboarding" is not an official word yet per dictionary resources, I go to Wikipeidia) "The technique consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die.[12]

In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates a gag reflex almost immediately.[13] The technique does not inevitably or in all cases cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, ultimately, death.[3] Adverse physical consequences can start manifesting months after the event; psychological effects can last for years.[14]"

(from Christian Science Monitor, partial quote from article)
posted October 26, 2006 at 11:30 a.m.
Cheney confirms use of waterboarding
In radio interview, Cheney calls use of tactic a 'no-brainer.'
By Tom Regan

In a radio interview Tuesday, US Vice President Dick Cheney confirmed that US interrogators have used a controversial technique know as waterboarding to interrogate senior Al Qaeda suspects. McClatchy's Washington bureau reports that Mr. Cheney said the White House does not see the practice as torture, and allows the CIA to use it. Cheney said use of waterboarding was a "no-brainer for him."

To me, the above is enough to support the conclusion that waterboarding is torture, no-if's-and's-or-but's, and that Cheney is possibly complicit to the degree of committing an impeachable offense. The fact that White House legal advisors employed euphemisms or legalistic and coy phrasings such as "harsh interrogation techniques" or that some people might refer to waterboarding as "a dunk in the water" changes nothing.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: bwf27,

quote:

Originally posted by recone528:
This guy is way off base. He is the type of guy that wants us to abide by the rules and regulations of war that we created and in the mean time our troops are being killed, tortured, and and god knows what else when they are captive. Give me a break!!! Maybe you should go back in and get captured and see the abuse our guys take when in the custody of the enemy.

It is people like this that make this country weak. Why should we follow all these stupid rules and watch the rest of the world laugh at us for doing it.

The problem with the people in this country is we are too soft on the enemy. If we took a stronger stance then maybe half these hole in the wall countries would straighten up and realize we won't tolerate any type of terrorism or WMD anywhere!!!

what are you 12 years old?
If you're a Marine you should know about following orders no matter how tough they are. This man did more time in hell then you did in uniform. The core values and principles you should have learned in your first 12 weeks are nowhere to found in this post. You couldn't been more than a ****bird pogue if you were even in.

quote:

Originally posted by Sand_Flea:

quote:

Originally posted by recone528:
This guy is way off base. He is the type of guy that wants us to abide by the rules and regulations of war that we created and in the mean time our troops are being killed, tortured, and and god knows what else when they are captive. Give me a break!!! Maybe you should go back in and get captured and see the abuse our guys take when in the custody of the enemy.

It is people like this that make this country weak. Why should we follow all these stupid rules and watch the rest of the world laugh at us for doing it.

The problem with the people in this country is we are too soft on the enemy. If we took a stronger stance then maybe half these hole in the wall countries would straighten up and realize we won't tolerate any type of terrorism or WMD anywhere!!!

what are you 12 years old?
If you're a Marine you should know about following orders no matter how tough they are. This man did more time in hell then you did in uniform. The core values and principles you should have learned in your first 12 weeks are nowhere to found in this post. You couldn't been more than a ****bird pogue if you were even in.

Though I believe you are a little over the top Sand Flea, I do agree that following orders are a must. Yet, those orders are handed down to us and if we are told to do something by a higher authority we do it, we don't go look in the Geneva Convention and see what it says.

As for the article, this just goes to show that there needs to be changes done to the Geneva Convention since it is from 1949. War changes as should the GC.

quote:

Originally posted by Anbar7:

quote:

Originally posted by Sand_Flea:

quote:

Originally posted by recone528:
This guy is way off base. He is the type of guy that wants us to abide by the rules and regulations of war that we created and in the mean time our troops are being killed, tortured, and and god knows what else when they are captive. Give me a break!!! Maybe you should go back in and get captured and see the abuse our guys take when in the custody of the enemy.

It is people like this that make this country weak. Why should we follow all these stupid rules and watch the rest of the world laugh at us for doing it.

The problem with the people in this country is we are too soft on the enemy. If we took a stronger stance then maybe half these hole in the wall countries would straighten up and realize we won't tolerate any type of terrorism or WMD anywhere!!!

what are you 12 years old?
If you're a Marine you should know about following orders no matter how tough they are. This man did more time in hell then you did in uniform. The core values and principles you should have learned in your first 12 weeks are nowhere to found in this post. You couldn't been more than a ****bird pogue if you were even in.

Though I believe you are a little over the top Sand Flea, I do agree that following orders are a must. Yet, those orders are handed down to us and if we are told to do something by a higher authority we do it, we don't go look in the Geneva Convention and see what it says.

As for the article, this just goes to show that there needs to be changes done to the Geneva Convention since it is from 1949. War changes as should the GC.

Over the top? Where? This guy is ****in n moaning and dumps on a former POW. I think I showing remarkable restraint. Listen I dislike thr ROE in place today as much as the one 40 + years ago. Give me a free fire zone and an a-gunner humping a full load. But institutionalizing torture is wrong.

Hey sand flea until you make it past the rank of lance i would just stick to keeping posts to yourself.

i put my time in the infantry and most who talk about pogues are pogues. you must be one of these mother of america types that whine everytime you have to deploy when you are the very one that signed up for what you are doing.

the ROE's are a joke and need to be changed and people like you who think that our country is going to survive by being the only ones that follow the ROE's should not have ever served.

although i don't agree with all bush did, we all volunteered to serve regardless and orders are orders. and for someone who was a POW should think the same way. our guys suffer more than can be imagined, but we are suppose to cater to our captured enemies. Please!!

i am all for any means it takes to get any intelligance we need to accomplish the mission.

Well, I'm not a marine, but I am an E5, so I guess I'm "qualified" to post on this board?

"Orders is orders" is all well and good. If they are lawful orders.

Personally, I have to respect the opinions of anyone who has been in a situation, and says that our side putting anyone else in that position is wrong. I've been tortured and hazed plenty, though never at the hands of an enemy. I didn't care for it, and I seriously doubt its effectivness as an intel gathering method. Take a look at the Spanish Inquisition, and tell me how efective some of the most brutal torture methods ever developed were at gathering information.

If your goal is to demoralize and punish your foes, torture works great. It also works wonderfully at screwing your moral compass up beyond all recognition.

I'm not in favor of catering to our foes, but I'll be damned if I support torture, either. Question them. If they won't talk, kill em and get some more. Eventually, you'll find one that values life more than his cause. If you want to lower the world's opinion of our country even further (if possible), you are on the right track.

If policy dosen't work or isn't effective, it should be changed. But if your actions mirror those of your enemies to closly, eventually nobody will be able to tell the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by recone528:
Hey sand flea until you make it past the rank of lance i would just stick to keeping posts to yourself.

i put my time in the infantry and most who talk about pogues are pogues. you must be one of these mother of america types that whine everytime you have to deploy when you are the very one that signed up for what you are doing.

the ROE's are a joke and need to be changed and people like you who think that our country is going to survive by being the only ones that follow the ROE's should not have ever served.

although i don't agree with all bush did, we all volunteered to serve regardless and orders are orders. and for someone who was a POW should think the same way. our guys suffer more than can be imagined, but we are suppose to cater to our captured enemies. Please!!

i am all for any means it takes to get any intelligance we need to accomplish the mission.

cry me a river pogue, tell us all how you've suffered more than anybody in the entire 233 years of the Corps.

quote:

Originally posted by JTBOWLING:
I respect this guy's sacrificail service to our nation, but he's way over-the-top on his call for charges & the like to be brought against Pres Bush. Torture is what the jihadists do to our their captives! The treatment we give these enemy combatants is 'harsh' at worst!!! We don't 'torture'... hazing, maybe... but torture??? NO!!!!

Waterboarding IS torture. The Expert on Torture has said so. John McCain. NO ONE in this nation is more qualified to make that judgement than he is. I do not want to see anyone punished for it, including the Lower Military personnel that werte place on trial for it. ALL of them should be released and it should be written off as a "lesson learned" and never to be repeated. This includes W and Dick. If it continues, then place them or anyone else on trial.

Phillip Neal Butler, you allowed yourself to become a Political Prostitute.

You used that against a Fellow POW


You are dispicable

I applaud this gentlemen's service and sacrifice to the US, but he's way overboard on this one. I haven't heard of an attack on US soil since 1991.

Let him sing kumbaya with the rest of the Left Coast Liberals while drinking his wheat tea and trying to wonder why it is so cold when there is global warming.

Give me a break!!! Maybe you should go back in and get captured and see the abuse our guys take when in the custody of the enemy. Posted by recone528...

in reply to recone 528.
You say maybe he should go back active duty get captured again after spending 8 years of his life as a POW in NAM? No!!! Its people like YOU who make this country weak you idiot! This Man already went through more torture than those rag-tag sissys could ever know. Get real KID President Bush is a ****ing ****** !!! He SUCKED BAD and He should be ****ing punished..

quote:

Originally posted by LineDoggie:
Phillip Neal Butler, you allowed yourself to become a Political Prostitute.

You used that against a Fellow POW


You are dispicable

Your thought process is convoluted LineDoggie. In supporting the Constitution, Mr. Bulter asserts that it is the rule of law which is the basis for governing our country, both in domestic and international affairs. Mr. Butler is anything but a political prostitute, and he is quite the opposite of being despicable. It was your hero, George Bush, who stated that the Constitution is "just a Goddammed piece of paper". It's the criminal Bush/Cheney clique that has brought discredit to our country for the past eight years. You have supported this right wing totalitarian fascist regime for the past eight years Doggie - that's what I call despicable. We are the people of the United States of America, and as such we should not portray ourselves as jackbooted thugs to the rest of the civilized world.

quote:

Originally posted by Misanthrope2:

quote:

Originally posted by LineDoggie:
Phillip Neal Butler, you allowed yourself to become a Political Prostitute.

You used that against a Fellow POW


You are dispicable

Your thought process is convoluted LineDoggie. In supporting the Constitution, Mr. Bulter asserts that it is the rule of law which is the basis for governing our country, both in domestic and international affairs. Mr. Butler is anything but a political prostitute, and he is quite the opposite of being despicable. It was your hero, George Bush, who stated that the Constitution is "just a Goddammed piece of paper". It's the criminal Bush/Cheney clique that has brought discredit to our country for the past eight years. You have supported this right wing totalitarian fascist regime for the past eight years Doggie - that's what I call despicable. We are the people of the United States of America, and as such we should not portray ourselves as jackbooted thugs to the rest of the civilized world.

I'm a Fascist sympathizer now? GULF FOXTROT YANKEE

quote:

Originally posted by yanqui69:
I applaud this gentlemen's service and sacrifice to the US, but he's way overboard on this one. I haven't heard of an attack on US soil since 1991.

Let him sing kumbaya with the rest of the Left Coast Liberals while drinking his wheat tea and trying to wonder why it is so cold when there is global warming.

I wouldn't know about "Left Coast" Liberals, but I am a Midwestern "Democrat" and I agree whole-heartedly with everything the man says, and his conclusions about who should be held accountable. In fact I have only visited the west coast a few times, many of which were when I was serving my country in uniform.

I also think that since he based his assumptions on the law of the land, the least those who disagree with him could do is define their disagreements with him ALSO based in the law.

Nobody has yet contradicted him convincingly, based upon the Law. To just bark out names and insults to a guy that has given so much of himself to our country without also providing some reasons why he is wrong (based upon the law) is lame.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill_Fold:

quote:

Originally posted by yanqui69:
I applaud this gentlemen's service and sacrifice to the US, but he's way overboard on this one. I haven't heard of an attack on US soil since 1991.

Let him sing kumbaya with the rest of the Left Coast Liberals while drinking his wheat tea and trying to wonder why it is so cold when there is global warming.

I wouldn't know about "Left Coast" Liberals, but I am a Midwestern "Democrat" and I agree whole-heartedly with everything the man says, and his conclusions about who should be held accountable. In fact I have only visited the west coast a few times, many of which were when I was serving my country in uniform.

I also think that since he based his assumptions on the law of the land, the least those who disagree with him could do is define there disagreement with him, ALSO based in the law.

Nobody has yet contradicted him convincingly, based upon the Law. To just bark out names and insults to a guy that has given so much of himself to our Country is lame.

Don't you yet realize that the law means nothing to those who are afraid, who live in fear of attack all the time?

What good is the law when your shorts are full?

quote:

Originally posted by 1SGCGP:
Give me a break!!! Maybe you should go back in and get captured and see the abuse our guys take when in the custody of the enemy. Posted by recone528...

in reply to recone 528.
You say maybe he should go back active duty get captured again after spending 8 years of his life as a POW in NAM? No!!! Its people like YOU who make this country weak you idiot! This Man already went through more torture than those rag-tag sissys could ever know. Get real KID President Bush is a ****ing ****** !!! He SUCKED BAD and He should be ****ing punished..

Quite the sewer mouth there ... impressive vocabulary.