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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events In the News Tillman Family Still Waiting for Answers Topic Closed|
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Member |
RE: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,172237,00.html
The politics of the Tillman tragedy is the stink smelled around the world. Was it the panicked reactions of someone undertrained and unprepared? Bad communications? Murder using the "fog" of war? A simple F-up? Who ordered whom to say what? not say anything? Was it an order or simply "understood" that nothing gets said without permission? It was awful to begin with, but made horrible by mishandling. But we know from the likes of Lt. Cmdr. Swift (Hamdan vs Rumsfeld) that a sure way to end your career is to take a principled stand in opposition to the powers-that-be. What cannot be "covered up" is that Tillman truly lived up to the phrase... Duty, Honor, Country. |
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Experienced Member |
Fratricide is an ugly thing...
I wonder how many gold star mothers received telegrams during WWII that simply stated that their son was lost during combat operations in some far-away land without further description... their son actually being lost to friendly fire. So, all of those telegrams are part of the great cover-up, too. Those leaders need to be exhumed and raked over the coals for not getting it right. I do have sympathy for the Tillman family, and at this point they probably know more about the actions surrounding their loved-ones death than most of the families of other heroes who have fallen in battle in the War on Terrorism. |
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New Member |
Its most likely that we will never know. The current administration at every level has refused to answer truthfully to any questions that is opposite their views and plans. We will never get answers to any of the lies and dodges that have gone on the past 8 years. Granted weve never had a good track record of those at the top being forthcoming, but this current group is worse than most.
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Member |
" But what is worst, to me, is that all these years later, no one is willing to admit, "Yes.I was informed it might be friendly fire. I should have stopped the press release.I should have called up the chain of command.I should have spoken to the President. And I didn't."
The profound cowardice of some top brass stands in such marked contrast to the bravery of the men and women they commanded. These officials felt brave enough to send our military into battle, and yet not one of them has the strength of character to look Pat's mother, Mary Tillman, in the face, and say they are sorry. This is unconscionable." I'm reading Mary Tillman's book "Boots on the Ground before dusk" http://www.amazon.com/Boots-Ground-Dusk-Tribute-Tillman...id=1216775879&sr=8-1 about her son Pat Tillman and ordeal Pat's family has had to endure in the 4 years since his death. I find it utterly despicable that adminstration toadies would try and pass off Pat Tillman's death as "awww it happens in all wars". No, what happened to Pat Tillman just doesn't "happen". Every aspect of this adminstration has got to be stage managed and spun to a degree unseen before in our history as a Nation! They give Pat Tillman a Silver Star and a promotion,he gets a heroes send off.Then a month later the Army tells the family he got shot (repeatedly) by members of this own unit.But wait, The Tillman's don't hear the real story about Pat's death until Mary Tillman gets a call from a Arizona newspaper reporter! And now, as Paul Harvey,would say, the rest of the story: Spinning the Tillman story shouldn't come as any surprise. Its what these people do.Whether its Plamegate, Katrina, the AG scandal, WMD, blackwater, the missing White House emails in their millions (some of them concerning Pat Tillman)the ends justify the means. To the faith basers to whom this adminstration can do no wrong, Pat Tillman's family are now a just a bunch of disloyal malcontents who hate the President.The nerve of them to demand answers from the "spinners"! Thank You,Paul Rieckhoff, for keeping the Tillman travesty from fading from public view. The Tillman family deserves answers. Who lied and who was told to lie and by whom. Its just that simple. |
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New Member |
7 investigations AND Congress looked into it ,and there are still unresolved questions as to what happened? I honestly don't know what I was doing the day I heard Pat Tillman had died. I don't know what I was doing the day I heard that it looked like it was from friendly fire. I am just as evil as Rumsfield and the rest? And the crazy thing is, I wasn't in charge of running a war. I wasn't swamped with intel and the names of all the others who had died around that time. It isn't at all plausible these guys honestly can't recall what was going on in that moment? And correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was the job of a PR guy to be in front of everything that may or may not affect their client. I certainly doubt that he had to be "handled" in order to do his job.
I think some of you expect too much from the higher ups sometimes. First you go to lengths to disparage them as evil "Darth Vader" types bent on ruling the world with an iron fist and then complain that they have no heart. Pat Tillman's death was tragic like all the others. Unless you are implying that there was a Presidential Order to assassinate him then really the only thing that the Admin is guilty of here is trying to find its heroes in a war. Yes they jumped the gun and I do feel for his family for that. But I'll call you a liar if you tell me that you didn't feel some measure of pride when you initially heard about this hero. It happens in every war known to man. Those waging it look for heroes in order to rightly or wrongly, maintain support for their efforts from a largely out of touch population. |
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Super Member |
The Tillman's are trying to find an answer and make sense of a terrible tragedy, one that happens to more than just soldiers with famous backgrounds. I hope that they can have their grief relieved and someday find peace...
It's time to say good bye to their son and move on now... Sorry for your tragic loss and Thank You to your brave son... Respectfully, SUNLINER81 |
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Member |
I dont consider the loss of Tillman anymore significent than the loss of any young troop from any state. The loss of a young sailor blown off a flight deck and not recovered is just as tragic and the family may never know the details or get the body back.
I too think it's time to move on from this. Shockey |
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How many guys like you are willing to "Move On", knowing that their son was perhaps murdered on a battlefield? Not many. I for one would never rest until I knew what happened to my own son, not ever. After this insane war is over, we will find out exactly what happened. |
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Super Member |
Whether my son died as a result of "friendly" fire or from "hostile" fire, he died serving his country and I would consider him a hero! I would consider that he was now in the arms of our loving God and that I would see him again someday. I would honor and cherish his memory and I would miss him terribly... I WOULD MOVE ON... Respectfully, SUNLINER81 |
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Experienced Member |
I am with you, Sunliner. I would be devistated and would miss any one of my 4 sons terribly and think of him daily, but I would move on. The rest of the family is still alive and that is where I would put my focus.
Pat Tillman is a hero, no matter how he died. I disagree, Weatherguesser. I do not believe that we will ever find out "exactly" what happened on that fateful patrol, during an engagement with either hostile or friendly forces. |
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Super Member |
I wonder, do the Tillman's believe that they will somehow keep the memory of their son alive, by doing what they are doing?
I wonder, is this a way of relieving their angst? I feel for them, respect them, I just wonder... Respectfully, SUNLINER81 |
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Experienced Member |
The Tillmans were lied to, and then when they started hearing differently, the liars lied even harder.
they USED Pat -- they exploited and sensationalized his death as part of the effort to sell the war. Yeah, it was the media that took the bone, but the pentagon admin perpetuated the lies for a long, long time hoping to get good PR. that's wrong the question the Tillmans are asking is "If we are a hi profile family, and we're being treated like this, how're the less fortunate families being treated, and what kind of deeds are being swept under the carpet about their loved ones?" |
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Previous Posts as Jade_Gate |
Actually, the only thing of which I am aware that the Tillmans are still doing is running a foundation in Pat's name ... a worthwhile one at that. Rieckhoff appears to have just pulled this opinion piece out of thin air ... or out of the hidden part of his anatomy. |
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Member |
So,you wonder by the Tillman's "doing what they are doing" if its a way of relieving their angst? Lied to by people you're suppose to be able to trust and they're just suppose to lay down and take it! Just let it go.....That seems to be the M.O. for this adminstration. Its like they're saying,"don't worry about the Tillmans, they'll tire and go away". Apparently the Tillmans are made of different "stuff" than you and the other "just let it go" gang would have them be. And yes feel for them, respect them, but don't you dare question their quest for the accountabilty of public servants both in and out of the military who knowingly B.S.ed not only the Tillmans, but the rest of the Country too. Respectfully.  |
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Super Member |
It would appear by the posts themselves, that those that have a problem with it are those that have a problem with the current President and administration and are using Pat Tillman's death, to the point of making up facts not in evidence and using total supposition on their parts to connect dots that not only don't connect, but don't even exist! In short, being ghouls and climbing on the grave of a soldier and the feelings of his parents to make a cheap and shoddy political point!... Don't like what I just said? Tough, I don't care!... Your own ghoulish words in your posts condemn you!... Respectfully, SUNLINER81 |
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Experienced Member |
We would all love for the Tillman family to have all the information surrounding their son's death. That would be just great. But, where did this "murder" plot angle come from. Stay factual, not off in some conspiracy theory land. Sure, the administration used his name and fame to garner support.. so did they with the PVT Lynch story... which was all conjecture. Do they want their son to be remembered for being a hero and giving his life for what he belived in, or for being another needle for the Bush-haters to jab into America's side. It is time to honor him and quit dragging him through the mud, which is all Rieckhoff appears to be doing... |
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Member |
It would appear by the posts themselves, that those that have a problem with it are those that have a problem with the current President and administration and are using Pat Tillman's death, to the point of making up facts not in evidence and using total supposition on their parts to connect dots that not only don't connect, but don't even exist!
In short, being ghouls and climbing on the grave of a soldier and the feelings of his parents to make a cheap and shoddy political point!... Don't like what I just said? Tough, I don't care!... Your own ghoulish words in your posts condemn you!... Respectfully, SUNLINER81[/QUOTE] Poor Sunliner, Got his panties in a bunch.  Calls my words "ghoulish" and I'm condemned for pointing out the outrage that most thinking Americans have with this administration concerning the Pat Tillman case. You think by attempting to blowviate your way though the facts that most certainly do exist that you'll make this all go away ? NOT!Fact #1 The Army originally reported that Tillman was killed in a firefight with enemy forces in the rugged mountains of Afghanistan near the Pakistani border, and officials heralded his heroism with a tale of how he was charging a hill against the enemy when he was shot. Weeks later, after a nationally televised memorial service, the Army revealed that he had been gunned down by members of his own unit who had rounded a corner in a Humvee and mistook him and a coalition Afghan fighter for the enemy. Although it took weeks for the Army to reveal publicly that Tillman's death was fratricide, the first Army investigator who looked into the shooting discovered within days of the incident that Tillman had been killed by fellow Rangers, in what he concluded was an act of "gross negligence," according to documents obtained by The Washington Post. Soldiers admitted emptying their high-powered weapons at an Afghan Militia Force soldier working with the Rangers and then on Tillman's position without knowing what exactly was in their sights. The Afghan soldier was also killed, while a U.S. soldier hiding near Tillman, behind a rock, survived. The investigator later complained to Army officials that, in subsequent investigations, he felt the military chain of command had allowed soldiers to change their stories to protect individuals, and that the punishments did not square with his finding of gross negligence. Seven soldiers were given various administrative punishments for violations such as dereliction of duty; a team leader was cited for failing to effectively command and control the fire and movement of his Rangers. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...AR2006030400824.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...AR2005052200865.html Fact #2 Last year the Army censured a retired three-star general, Lt. Gen. Philip Kensinger, for misleading investigators in the Tillman case. Specifically, a military review found "compelling evidence that Kensinger learned of suspected fratricide well before the memorial service (about two weeks after Tillman's death) and provided misleading testimony" on that issue. New documents obtained by The AP under the Freedom of Information Act may explain why the Army felt so confident Kensinger had lied. In a November 2006 written response to investigators, Col. James Nixon, Tillman's regimental commander, said he recalled telling Kensinger almost immediately of the possibility of friendly fire. "I thought I did notify LTG Kensinger that there was a potential for fratricide and that we were beginning an investigation but can not recall the specific conversation," Nixon wrote in an e-mail message. It was a follow-up to investigators who had interviewed him previously. Nixon also recalled telling Kensinger's deputy, Brig. Gen. Howard Yellen. Yellen has testified previously that he told Kensinger of the possibility of friendly fire the day after Tillman's death. http://www.wtop.com/?sid=1402745&nid=104  Sunliner, you have zero moral or ethical standing. Simply put, you are defending the indefensiable and I laugh at you. Respectfully. |
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Experienced Member |
EXACTLY. |
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Experienced Member |
Amen. |
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Super Member |
Poor Sunliner, Got his panties in a bunch. Calls my words "ghoulish" and I'm condemned for pointing out the outrage that most thinking Americans have with this administration concerning the Pat Tillman case. You think by attempting to blowviate your way though the facts that most certainly do exist that you'll make this all go away ? NOT!Fact #1 The Army originally reported that Tillman was killed in a firefight with enemy forces in the rugged mountains of Afghanistan near the Pakistani border, and officials heralded his heroism with a tale of how he was charging a hill against the enemy when he was shot. Weeks later, after a nationally televised memorial service, the Army revealed that he had been gunned down by members of his own unit who had rounded a corner in a Humvee and mistook him and a coalition Afghan fighter for the enemy. Although it took weeks for the Army to reveal publicly that Tillman's death was fratricide, the first Army investigator who looked into the shooting discovered within days of the incident that Tillman had been killed by fellow Rangers, in what he concluded was an act of "gross negligence," according to documents obtained by The Washington Post. Soldiers admitted emptying their high-powered weapons at an Afghan Militia Force soldier working with the Rangers and then on Tillman's position without knowing what exactly was in their sights. The Afghan soldier was also killed, while a U.S. soldier hiding near Tillman, behind a rock, survived. The investigator later complained to Army officials that, in subsequent investigations, he felt the military chain of command had allowed soldiers to change their stories to protect individuals, and that the punishments did not square with his finding of gross negligence. Seven soldiers were given various administrative punishments for violations such as dereliction of duty; a team leader was cited for failing to effectively command and control the fire and movement of his Rangers. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...AR2006030400824.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...AR2005052200865.html Fact #2 Last year the Army censured a retired three-star general, Lt. Gen. Philip Kensinger, for misleading investigators in the Tillman case. Specifically, a military review found "compelling evidence that Kensinger learned of suspected fratricide well before the memorial service (about two weeks after Tillman's death) and provided misleading testimony" on that issue. New documents obtained by The AP under the Freedom of Information Act may explain why the Army felt so confident Kensinger had lied. In a November 2006 written response to investigators, Col. James Nixon, Tillman's regimental commander, said he recalled telling Kensinger almost immediately of the possibility of friendly fire. "I thought I did notify LTG Kensinger that there was a potential for fratricide and that we were beginning an investigation but can not recall the specific conversation," Nixon wrote in an e-mail message. It was a follow-up to investigators who had interviewed him previously. Nixon also recalled telling Kensinger's deputy, Brig. Gen. Howard Yellen. Yellen has testified previously that he told Kensinger of the possibility of friendly fire the day after Tillman's death. http://www.wtop.com/?sid=1402745&nid=104 Sunliner, you have zero moral or ethical standing. Simply put, you are defending the indefensiable and I laugh at you. Respectfully.[/QUOTE] I don't care what you think of me, because you are a ghoul and a cheap shot artist that has no honor and care to make political points on the bodies of dead soldiers. Soldiers who YOU are not good enough to even utter their names, you and all the political hacks that support your filthy degraded cause... You lie in your post, because your cause is not the facts, but just an excuse to knock the fight against terrorism and President Bush and you will climb on the bodies of dead soldiers to do so. I may have my "panties in a bunch" as you state, but your tactics are filthy and degraded and I would say that you should be ashamed but since you have no honor, you have no shame... Respectfully, SUNLINER81 |
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Topic Closed Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events In the News Tillman Family Still Waiting for Answers
