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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events In the News Worse Than A Crime -- A Mistake|
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Experienced Member |
That, in my very humble opinion, was an excellent opinion piece and well worth the read ...
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New Member |
I second Jade_Gate's opinion.
Back in the early - mid 80's I had a Captain we will call "Archie" (his real name...). The boat was the USS Pogy, SSN 647. Archie had two rules. If you had equipment that was down, were behind on your quals or planned maintenance, you were expected to be on the boat until the situation was resolved. If you were caught up and your gear was working, you were expected to be somewhere other than the boat (except for muster). There were many days of "in at 9 AM, out at 10 AM". There were also some days - or more than one day - where you stayed on the boat while your gear waited for parts or you qualified on a system. "Archie" had a crew that would follow him to the frozen hell and out into the gut of the bear as he asked. The key - exactly what otisotis says - is that the Captain held his word no matter what. As enlisted men, we KNEW the Captain was good for his word. Did we take advantage? Heck no! First, I wasn't stupid enough to cross the Captain - he IS the Captain after all and his word works both ways! Second, why spoil a good thing? If we did our job properly, we spent much more time on liberty than if we would have slacked. Besides - nobody slacked because we did not want to break the Captain's trust. "otisotis" needs a Nobel prize and a professorship at the Naval Academy. "Archie" has my everlasting respect, gratitude and goodwill for teaching a young sailor how to do it right. Fair winds and following seas, Admiral Clemins. You deserved the position of the 28th Commander in Chief of the US Pacific Fleet years ago and you still deserve my respect now. I would still follow you wherever you asked me to go. |
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Super Member |
I think that the most telling line in the article, was,"a peace time Navy". We are fighting a war and the leadership, believes, that it is peace time.
If the senior leadership of the fleet, desires to enforce this policy, they can cut down on paper work costs and man hours lost, by simply doing what the old Soviet Navy did, that's have a political officer on board to make sure that the proper attitude and thought is maintained. If there is a "Sailor" that thinks improperly, then that Sailor can be "watched and counseled". Should his or her attitude not improve, they can be sent for "counseling" at the appropriate "school"... Respectfully, SUNLINER81 |
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New Member |
This is an excellent point view. I'm agree 100%.
I was on 2 ships and they were as different as Heaven and Hell. This is what is the REAL leadership. |
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New Member |
Oh My God, What has happened to the Navy. It too has died and gone to P.C. Hell. I spent 2.5 years off the coast of Viet Nam in the late 60's on board two WWII commissioned CVA's (31 and 19). We as EM (and proud of it) worked 12 on 12 off 7 days a week for a period of 30 to 45 days with out a break. When we got off the "Line" and back to Subic we were encouraged to perty out eye balls out because in 6 to 10 days we would be back on the "Line" and working impossible hours under the worst conditions. We were fighting men and treated as such in every since of the word. If you messed up you paied dearly. Discipline was swift and in some cases harsh but never the less fair. The average age of the entire crew was 22. Imagine that, 3500 young guys (sorry not PC) squashed together on a "Boat" designed for 1500, working sometimes 48 hours without sleep and be effective? I always believed that Peace Time Military was for the birds but we have been in a war for some time now. Some advise for Command Take your ships to sea and live each day as if you were at war 12 on 12 off 7 days a week and when it comes time for Crew liberity, for gods sake leave them alone. These are fighting men and women treat them as such and leave the paper shuffling to the "Desk Pushers"
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New Member |
I highly concur in the Captain's hypothesis. During my 30 yrs of service I had command of 3 destroyers, an ammunition ship and a cruiser. I had no serious disciplinary problems, sure there were some fights with the shore patrol, AOLs, etc.
I considered each an every one of my men (no women) as equals and treated them with accordingly, yet knew that as CO I had major responsibilities and authority. Early in the game I learned that first there was loyalty down. With this, loyalty up followed. I trusted and had faith in each and every one until he let me down. Was I ever let down? Really not but, there were several occasions when someone was on very thin ice. |
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Highly Experienced Member |
There was once a desire to craft a military that reflected today's society. That wish was based on racial, ethnic, and gender demographics - however, it was distorted into something that actually reflected civilian society's values and principles.
George Will gave a talk to the Middies during one of its Forrestal Lecture Series at Annapolis; I believe it was in '01. I highly encourage you all to go out and find that. Will accurately articulates the importance of keeping civilian and military values separate. |
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New Member |
I have shared this story/essay with many service members already. To a 'man' the response is MORE than + and in total agreement.
In the past 4-5 years I and others have witnessed this disturbing trend in tyrannical management. It is purely sinful. Too many intelligent and patriotic young people are in disdain of the Naval trend. Subsequently, these same individuals leave service after a single or second tour. Sadly, I've learned some service members of 14 years service are 'getting out'. I've been told this 'new Navy' is not the Navy I joined in 1976. The slogan is 'more for less'. I've discovered this means 'more mishaps for less accountability'. Indeed, the 'new Navy' is not the one I joined .........it's worse. |
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-------------------  Proud Member -------------------  |
Don't scoff or laugh at this piece. It is completely REAL. During my last 7 years in the Navy I was stationed at Marine Corps Base Hawaii Kaneohe Bay. During my tenure there, the so called liberty incidents in Japan took place. As far away as we were the same word came down. We were to fill out the liberty plan sheets in exactly the same way. As a senior First Class Petty Officer (E-6 to those who don't know) I was apalled and angry that anyone in this world had the audacity to tell me that I had to give them detailed plans of my weekend. I was 40 years old and a leader of men and women. I stilled had to do it regardless. Thankfully it didn't last too long. Worst piece of leadership I ever encountered in the military. Whoever thought that one up had a stick so far up his wazzoo it wasn't funny. Probably got a job at Enron when they retired.
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SUSPENDED MEMBER S_S |
I also agree...I had a Capt much the same...Hartman...Uss Jack (SSN605) |
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New Member |
Best article I have ever read on leadership! It's been over 30 years of working in the private sector and have seen the principles the Captain help organizations thrive, and the lack of such principles cause enterprises become dysfunctional. The lessons I learned, at Great Lakes, Bainbridge, Pensacola, Subic and WashDC, many years ago have served me well.
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I'm a Saylor, I'm not a Marine. |
Back in the 1950's and early 1960's, the Navy worked hard to promote the concept of "leadership" from O-10 down to E-2. Today, that concept seems to have been abandoned in favor of Political Correctness.
It would seem to me that the Navy needs more leaders such as Captain Joe Fyffe. He was the legendary China Station skipper of a Yangtze River gunboat described in Capt. Bill Lederers's, All the Ships at Sea.. Lederer (who also wrote The Ugly American and A Nation of Sheep served under Fyffe in 1936-36. Fyffe was one of those skippers you would walk with to the gates of Hell, and was idolized by the crew. If Fyffe parted his hair in a certain style, so did the crew. If Fyffe grew a moustache, so did the crew. If Fyffe used a certain expression, so did the crew. Once, Fyffe showed up at Quarters with a shaved head, bald as a billard ball. The next morning at Quarters, the entire crew had shaved their heads equally bald. It was then that Fyffe pulled off the rubber stage "bald head" to reveal HE still had a full head of hair. About 1960, Rear Admiral "Jumpin' Joe" Clifton (an ex-white hat) was the same kind of leader who could out-drink everyone else, swore like a trooper, and as a captain had played on the NAS Memphis football team. Everyone from SN/AN up the chain of command idolized and respected him. Where can the Navy find the leadership that does not require stupid politically correctness, and yet gets the job done? |
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Super Member |
Ah yes, Olongapo! A sexual Disneyland for perverts, where every ride was an a "E" ticket! YEEEE HAAAAW!... LOL Respectfully, SUNLINER81 |
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Super Member |
Your description of "Jumpin Joe" Clifton, sounds like Commander J.O. Tuttle, later Rear Admiral, he was the C.O. of VA-81 and that is one man that I'd do the low crawl naked into hell for, if he said it had to be done. A former "white hat" and he never forgot it... Respectfully, SUNLINER81 |
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New Member |
Wow!
I spent three years in Japan from 1982 to 1984 on the USS Midway and the USS Cochrane. I can't imagine serving in today's girl scout Navy. I watched the "Carrier" special on PBS last week and am amazed at how they PC'd Wog Day. Unfortunately, the liberty story doesn't surprise me - it just makes me glad that I'm not in the Navy now. |
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I'm a Saylor, I'm not a Marine. |
A "Jumpin' Joe" story: While on an Admiral's Inspection, he was touring one of the heads and was far from impressed, and nailed the seaman deuce standing by. "Do you think I've ever cleaned a shitter," he demanded of the seaman. "Oh, no, sir," the kid replied. "Well I'll tell you son, I have cleaned more shitters that you have ever SEEN in your life, and I'm gonna show you how." Then, in his dress whites, Jumpin' Joe got down and demonstrated how it was done properly. There are some things a white hat never forgets. Incidently, the nickname "Jumpin' Joe" came from his hyperactive physical fitness dating back to his days as a football All-American at the Naval Academy. Even as an admiral,he was constantly going up and down ladders two at a time, and as COMCARDIV7 running laps and doing jumping jacks on the flight of the USS Oriskany. (As a captain and CO of NAS Memphis, he even playing fullback on the station football team. Until the CNO heard of it and brought it to a screeching halt with a message: "The Navy has invested millions of dollars in your career. You will not--repeat, jeopardize it by playing football." (After his retirement and death in 1963, the CNO established the "Admiral Joseph C. Clifton Award for Meritorious Achievement", the most coveted trophy of excellence awarded annually to the top fighter squadron.) |
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New Member |
I was stationed in both Okinawa and Yokosuka for my 5 years in the Navy and the writer in this article is absolutely correct.
I left the navy as an E-4 because of those ridiculous policies! I was forced by my command to attend a child parenting class that required me to take a fake baby home over my liberty weekend and I refused. As such I was busted down to E-4 and given 30 and 30. Ridiculous, I was 24, single, no dependents and had never been to mast before. As such as an E-4 I had a midnight curfew which I violated repeatedly because I was getting out of the Navy and was so fed up with their daddy to son mentality I just said to hell with it. I got out with my honorable by the skin of my teeth, and to this day I LOVE JAPAN but HATE seventh fleet! There is no leadership in the seventh fleet NAVY. I still respect all who serve but if you do stay away from Japan unless your married and on shore duty because you will become so cynical being subject to the B.S. rules of chiefs and officers there. |
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New Member |
I seriously hope that you are writing this "tongue in cheek" and aren't suggesting that we need to follow the policies of a failed system and a failed military! If so, all I can say is, UNBELIEVABLE! |
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New Member |
Now, as for what I think about the article, I would have to echo the sentiments of most of those who have written here about it. There is no place for draconian liberty policies in the Navy now or at anytime in history.
During my 20 years in the Navy, be it ship's crew or command personnel, everyone watched out for their shipmates and made sure that they did not get into trouble when on liberty. One command I was at had an unspoken "No one left behind" policy where you would not leave your buddy behind or even with another buddy to fend for himself especially in a foreign port. I think that this above all else kept us together as a team and as a sort of family. These days all you find is people who don't care about much except how to keep their own noses clean. I guess that reflects back on the society that they grew up with, mothers and fathers out of the house working because they had to and not much time for teaching basic self control and discipline. Nowadays, parents feel that it is the job of the schools, social clubs and the military to teach their kids what they could not teach them or didn't have time to teach them. That's just wrong but it's what today's military is stuck with. Okay, I've gotten off track but I still feel that draconian policies while easy on the top brass are not the right way to run a military. |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events In the News Worse Than A Crime -- A Mistake
