RE: http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,162781,00.html

The B-2 has 4 Actuator Remote Terminals (ART). These items convert the position of the flight control stick into signals the flight control actuators use to translate to an actual position. If the fire destroyed the ARTs, then the pilots would not be able to control the B-2 in flight.

With their per unit cost, and their attrition rate. Maybe they should be parked near Washington and used for VIP taxying trials and national holiday fly-bys.

That way there might be some still available if they were really needed.

Spooking Ali Baba and his herd of goats could probably be done cheaper with a 'Buff'.

The ART scenarion sounds plausible enough.

What I find amazing is that reporters always think incidents on other airframes aresimilar". What is similar between the B-2 crash and those with the B-1 (or B-52 for that matter)? NOTHING!!!!! Different designs and different causes.

Attrition rate? C'mon popsiq, with only 21 built one incident will spike the charts. In real terms, IOC in 1989 and only one airframe lost for any reason. I am not even aware of other Class "A" mishaps other than this one, but could be mistaken. As to what they are deployed for, mostly presence, but can be tasked if the need arises.

I am wondering if some of the problems may not be maintenence related? Vibration could equal loose connections and overcurrent causing fires. A hydraulic problem could be caused by age or fluid used, a break down in seals. Valves have seals in most cases, seals deteriorate with age.

Sounds like a good safety record to me !

quote:

Originally posted by 14219531:
I am wondering if some of the problems may not be maintenence related? Vibration could equal loose connections and overcurrent causing fires. A hydraulic problem could be caused by age or fluid used, a break down in seals. Valves have seals in most cases, seals deteriorate with age.

A dryed out seal could cause a leak, check properties of fluid, corrosion, flamibility, etc. Replace all O-ring seals that are beyond service life, age wise. Air in a high pressure system can cause damage, failure and increased fluid temp.

quote:

Originally posted by 14219531:
I am wondering if some of the problems may not be maintenence related? Vibration could equal loose connections and overcurrent causing fires. A hydraulic problem could be caused by age or fluid used, a break down in seals. Valves have seals in most cases, seals deteriorate with age.

Maintenance is always a possibility, but usually those items that can vibrate loose and cause catastrophic failure have safety wire (lock wire) or positive locking mechanisms holding things in place.

Yes, seals can go bad and fluid contamination is a possibility. I would not put any of them real high on the probability scale at this juncture.

Chaffing wire is another possible, but not probable, cause.

In wpould imagine these acft are a very thorough preflight package.

Time will tell.

quote:

Originally posted by sw614:

quote:

Originally posted by 14219531:
I am wondering if some of the problems may not be maintenence related? Vibration could equal loose connections and overcurrent causing fires. A hydraulic problem could be caused by age or fluid used, a break down in seals. Valves have seals in most cases, seals deteriorate with age.

Maintenance is always a possibility, but usually those items that can vibrate loose and cause catastrophic failure have safety wire (lock wire) or positive locking mechanisms holding things in place.

Yes, seals can go bad and fluid contamination is a possibility. I would not put any of them real high on the probability scale at this juncture.

Chaffing wire is another possible, but not probable, cause.

In wpould imagine these acft are a very thorough preflight package.

Time will tell.

Electrical terminal connections are normally not safety wired. I saved myself a lot of system related problems by checking and doping terminal connections and settings. Safety wire will also not prevent a leak if a seal fails, air can hammer a seal and cause a break if dry rot damages another or the craft isn't used enough.

quote:

What I find amazing is that reporters always think incidents on other airframes aresimilar". What is similar between the B-2 crash and those with the B-1 (or B-52 for that matter)? NOTHING!!!!! Different designs and different causes.

LOL. Usually the people who get a report actually published about this stuff know a whole hell of a lot more than you about the aircraft. They have what is *colloquially* termed as "contacts". They use these "contacts" to stay reasonably informed concerning the reporter's subject matter compared to, oh, say someone like you, who knows nothing.

quote:

Originally posted by 14219531:

quote:

Originally posted by sw614:

quote:

Originally posted by 14219531:
I am wondering if some of the problems may not be maintenence related? Vibration could equal loose connections and overcurrent causing fires. A hydraulic problem could be caused by age or fluid used, a break down in seals. Valves have seals in most cases, seals deteriorate with age.

Maintenance is always a possibility, but usually those items that can vibrate loose and cause catastrophic failure have safety wire (lock wire) or positive locking mechanisms holding things in place.

Yes, seals can go bad and fluid contamination is a possibility. I would not put any of them real high on the probability scale at this juncture.

Chaffing wire is another possible, but not probable, cause.

In wpould imagine these acft are a very thorough preflight package.

Time will tell.

Electrical terminal connections are normally not safety wired. I saved myself a lot of system related problems by checking and doping terminal connections and settings. Safety wire will also not prevent a leak if a seal fails, air can hammer a seal and cause a break if dry rot damages another or the craft isn't used enough.

All true, but I was referring to cannon plugs, fuel/hydraulic/air line connectors, etc. Lord knows I used enough .020, .032, and .040 wire in my time.

Seals can be a very big issue, but if acft is maintained properly, the issue can be minimized. However, I did my shgare of actuator changes due to seal failure and pumps due to cavitation.

On terminal boards, if used and I am not sure if the B-2 does, we normally used a flat washer, lock washer and torqued the nut to whatever specification was dictated. Newer acft seem to used plug-in components and large cannon plugs for electrical systems. All of these are inspected during periodic inspection cycles. Again, in regards to the B-2 it is a guess on my part.

Bottom line is that anything is possible, but I tend to line things up on the probability scale and wait for the investigation outcome.

quote:

Originally posted by sw614:

quote:

Originally posted by 14219531:

quote:

Originally posted by sw614:

quote:

Originally posted by 14219531:
I am wondering if some of the problems may not be maintenence related? Vibration could equal loose connections and overcurrent causing fires. A hydraulic problem could be caused by age or fluid used, a break down in seals. Valves have seals in most cases, seals deteriorate with age.

Maintenance is always a possibility, but usually those items that can vibrate loose and cause catastrophic failure have safety wire (lock wire) or positive locking mechanisms holding things in place.

Yes, seals can go bad and fluid contamination is a possibility. I would not put any of them real high on the probability scale at this juncture.

Chaffing wire is another possible, but not probable, cause.

In wpould imagine these acft are a very thorough preflight package.

Time will tell.

Electrical terminal connections are normally not safety wired. I saved myself a lot of system related problems by checking and doping terminal connections and settings. Safety wire will also not prevent a leak if a seal fails, air can hammer a seal and cause a break if dry rot damages another or the craft isn't used enough.

All true, but I was referring to cannon plugs, fuel/hydraulic/air line connectors, etc. Lord knows I used enough .020, .032, and .040 wire in my time.

Seals can be a very big issue, but if acft is maintained properly, the issue can be minimized. However, I did my shgare of actuator changes due to seal failure and pumps due to cavitation.

On terminal boards, if used and I am not sure if the B-2 does, we normally used a flat washer, lock washer and torqued the nut to whatever specification was dictated. Newer acft seem to used plug-in components and large cannon plugs for electrical systems. All of these are inspected during periodic inspection cycles. Again, in regards to the B-2 it is a guess on my part.

Bottom line is that anything is possible, but I tend to line things up on the probability scale and wait for the investigation outcome.

You may or may have not seen this. Cannon plugs as well as other spring tention connections can loose zeal due to vibration etc. This poor connection can cause intermitent connections and fire hazards due to arcing and overcurrent. I would recommend tapper lock pin connections. Ask cannon to supply you with these pins. A tool is required to insert and separate the pins in a stand alone configuration. Pins are crimp style but you can solder as well to increase reliability. I also recommend a check valve on the return side of the hydraulic system to minimize bleed down and air in the system.

Only a full investigation will determine the true cause. The thing is flying by wire is much more critical to failures than the conventional systems.

Just think about this for a moment.

"Anything mass produced by Man, will fail".

I was once a crew cheif on F-105's (the triple nickel in Viet Nam). It would bomb you, strafe you and FALL on you. Based on the age and mission of the B-2 ,I feel it has a darn good safety record.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 16427228,

I guess pilots will have to stop lighting up a cuban when on the way home from deployment. Another tradition bites the dust - guess bandits between the toes is next. Why did the crew ditch the one that was 100 miles from SeaBee Land?

The total airframe flight time mentioned seems very low for a aircraft 18 years old. It averages to only 6 hours a week. Given the long operational missions from Whiteman to Bosnia, Whiteman to Iraq/Diego Garcia, and now the commitment in Guam, only 5,176 total airframe hours caught my attention. Is this normal for a B-2?, or has this particular plane had mx problems that kept it grounded for extensive periods?

The first possibility about the ARTS. There are actually 8 ARTS on the aircraft. This is a redundant system that even with one missing from the airframe, the plane will still be able to fly. There are no fire sensors in the area where the ARTS are located so there is no way for the pilot or WSO to report a fire in that area. Since a fire was reported, it would stand to reason that it was in the cockpit, engine/AMAD or tail pipe bay. As for seals in the actuators, there is a slight possibility of that happening but still, has no way of providing an indication of fire to the crew. These planes live a life like no other plane. They are maintained continuously, parked in their own hangers and are flown very little. With the price per unit of these planes, you don't want to take a chance of losing one. They do have an increadable safety record. Only time will tell about the crash...a full investigation will take place and the fault will be unvield.

Regarding popsiq's posting commenting on the cost of the aircraft keep in mind that a Boeing 777 weighs in at a hefty 250 Million. Though the unit cost may seem exorbitant it's really not out of line with commercial industry costs. The easiest way to drive down the unit cost would be to increase production to a level where the aircraft could really be considered a meaningful part of the strategic deterrent rather than a consolation to keep some supply redundancy in the American aviation industry. If we want to have a bomber force AND save money we should buy some TU-160's.

Did anyone read the article like I did, and found that the credability of the reporter went in the toilet when I read,"Early testing indicated that the aircraft would remain structurally intact for about 40,000 flying hr. Analyses also posited that the rudder attachment points would be the first structural failure item."

Must be the stealth rudder...............

quote:

Originally posted by OBOGS1:
Did anyone read the article like I did, and found that the credability of the reporter went in the toilet when I read,"Early testing indicated that the aircraft would remain structurally intact for about 40,000 flying hr. Analyses also posited that the rudder attachment points would be the first structural failure item."

Must be the stealth rudder...............

I confess that went right past me my first read.Now all I can do is scratch my head in wonderment as to the validity of this article.

On board fire, any read outs from the black or orange boxes, or computer print outs. Any type fire must have combustion with conbinations of electrical, fluid, fuel, hot air, chaffing conditions, or failed parts. I have talked with many People that worked on this type airplane and I would suspect the Hyd fluid syatem. When We get to the four Bullion dollar Airplane design a fluid that will not burn. wcarter41