It will be very interesting to see what Israel does with the F-35 once they get it. They took the F-16 and improved on it and were able to fly it greater distances that the USAF.
The avionics suite they elect to buy will also be interesting to watch as their mission is very different than the USAF yet very specific. The Israelis are known to take a good idea and make it better. This will be most interesting to watch it evolve in their hands and what they do with it.

yup i wonder myself...

"Eventually somebody will come up with a way to detect it," he says. "A stealthy configuration also means you can't carry additional weaponry on the exterior. The weapons system is more important than stealth."

I'll bet that's the first time that thought has seen the light of day. Coming from IAF, that carries a lot of weight.

F22flighttester,

Welcome to In The News.

Discussions here need to have a link to the related news story or feature so that other members know what is being discussed.

IF THEY ARE IN SUCH A HURRY TO GET THIS A/C, HOW MUCH MONEY ARE THEY INVESTING IN THE INITIAL BUILDING AND TESTING? ARE WE JUST GOING TO "GIVE" THEM THE A/C LIKE WE DO OTHER STUFF?

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,158469,00.html?wh=news

Knowing Israel's tendency to sell our classified military technology to China and other nations that we don't want having it, why would we even think of selling them the JSF, or the Raptor? Anything sold to them will have it's technology sold to China within 10 years, courtesy of Israel.

quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixDark:
http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,158469,00.html?wh=news

Knowing Israel's tendency to sell our classified military technology to China and other nations that we don't want having it, why would we even think of selling them the JSF, or the Raptor? Anything sold to them will have it's technology sold to China within 10 years, courtesy of Israel.

Israel and India both have proven that hey can research and develop highly advanced systems for aircraft. Both have advanced indigenous missile programs and Both Israel and India have complete avionics and weapons suite mods for the MiG29 that rival and in some respects surpass Russian systems. Heck, an Indian company supplies some F22 parts.
However, since Israel doesn't have an investment in the F35, they should wait their turn in acquiring it.

Well, here we go again. India is looking to their own upgrade of an Sukhoi T-50 PAK-TA it is reversed F-22 technology in body, without the true technology, and a two seater. The Chinese and Iranians are doing mod's on a new fighter, well lets just wait for that one unless you wish to track it down. It's not hard to find. Personally I am not worried about the technology slipping, it will eventually anyway,and most likely will be due to greed by one of our own. What they do not have is American Pilots, and hands down, proven over and over, they make the technology work. Other countries have come close, but busted trying. In the fifties, American Pilots were being shot down by the MIG-15, it had a British engine! Given to them in 1946 by the British as a sign of good will. A lot of American Pilots lost their lives to it, with prop aircraft. Then came the F-86, the F-86D was captured, and the targeting system was reversed engineered, so we built the F-86F, and so on. The Russians found it was a radar targeting system to put the aircraft and pip on target, they countered it, so what. It was to no evail, a 15 to one ratio I think was still established, why? American Pilots. We're free, and we do it by choice. Our Russian allies have learned this now, once you have tasted Freedom and Democracy, you will want to keep it, by chioce. We can't help what our politicians do sometimes, but thanks to the internet, and travel agencies, we the people know that we can get along with each other, but unfortunatley there are those who will trade off the technology for the bucks, to those who wish to do us harm. It has been done since man invented war, and only the dead have seen the end of war unfortunatly

quote:

Originally posted by veetel:
"Eventually somebody will come up with a way to detect it," he says. "A stealthy configuration also means you can't carry additional weaponry on the exterior. The weapons system is more important than stealth."

I'll bet that's the first time that thought has seen the light of day. Coming from IAF, that carries a lot of weight.

Nope. We, the US, can already track it. The 6 megawatt phased array radar on the Aegis cruisers can detect the 117 and the B-2. There is no doubt it will be able to detect the F-22 and F-35 also. Notice I said detect. Aegis is the most powerful search radar on the planet, and the ONLY radar that can consistently spot stealth aircraft platforms. It can spot them, but cannot TRACK them with the accuracy required to guide an active or semi active homing missile to impact.

In the future, it is conceivable that potential enemies will produce powerful enough radars to spot stealth aircraft. It is even conceivable they may even produce tracking radars that can accurately illuminate them for missile guidance. However, this would limit enemy ability to kill stealth aircraft with SAMs only (see below for further explanation). SAMs are easy to defeat with manouvering if the pilot sees the SAM launch. The cost and infrastructure required for a 6+ megawatt ground radar network is very prohibitive for any nation but the U.S.

No fighter/interceptor will ever be able to carry a powerful enough radar to allow engagement of another stealth aircraft. Fighter engines can't generate enough electrical power. Aegis cruisers require a nuclear reactor to power that 6 MW radar. I don't foresee fighters carrying nuclear reactors aboard any time soon, nor a turbine sufficiently large enough to power a 6+ megawatt radar in addition to providing thrust for the platform.

For at least a few decades, stealth aircraft will be immune from radar interception. The only threats will be infrared and visual engagement, meaning IR missiles and guns.

More than likely, future aircraft detection systems will rely more and more on thermal sensing to spot/track/engage stealth aircraft (all aircraft) and far less on radar. Thermal sensors are typically passive devices and don't require power except for the digital processing required to "spot" the target against background heat sources. The problem with IRST systems is range. To get beyond 100 miles detection capability requires a huge optical lens greater than 6 feet in diameter (read about the air born laser). Future electronics and software advances may allow a much smaller lens to achieve the sensing range of todays radars.

It seems like the the f35 of the nation's configuration would fit into a whole air defense strategy with aspects of feigns and stealth. The IS mindset seems to be and much modular iron on target maybe for more northern border crossings. It's really sad that the whole JSF program keeps limiting it's AGM & bomb capabilities with a reliance on selective precision munitions. I mean some times you gota have a 2,000 # munition to do what a 500 # won't no matter how precise either are. Maybe at the worst the JSF can be a fancy designator for more capable ordinance carriers from the Euro block countries. I personal think new mirages and euro fighter esk platforms is what IS might take over US designs.
Just a matter of geography , politics, and situations that brew in the Mid east. If I were an IS citizen I'd rather have fast react bomb carriers than something that couldn't be hit but wouldn't hit worth it's weight. Who knows thou I don't build these new munitions maybe there will be a new wave like "lite beer" and SD bombs.

What loses me in this article is the comment by the IAF General that they need IAF dedicated only items on the F-35. IF they are, as everyone claims, our only real ally in the Middle East why would they need totally different stuff? Is this to keep us from being aware of them or what they are doing? I realize and understand the politics and location of Isreal in relationship to the Arab/muslim countries and emnity between them, but it still begs the question why different. This would in effect cancel out the US being able to coordinate aircraft with the IAF in a conflict where we are both together in it.
Am I missing something here?
Curious minds want to know.

I agree with the gent who asked a very salient question: HOW MUCH ARE THE ISRAELIS PLANNING TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE DEVELOPMENT COSTS OF THIS NEW AIRCRAFT!!! They will probably just expect us to GIVE it to them (like everything else), in addition to the 2 plus BILLION taxpayer dollars Jimmy Carter agreed to give them EVERY YEAR FOREVER for signing the "peace accords" with the Egyptians!!! What a sweet deal!

Israel should give us something back... maybe the stats on their "Arrow" anti-missile missile... oh, wait, they gave that. Well, how about their research on their version of the THEL Tactical High Energy Laser... oh, wait, we got that from them too. Well, maybe they could combat-test some of our equipment and risk death and capture against Arab forces. Oh, uhh... well, yeah, damn those selfish Israelis!

Like I said earlier, I don't think we should sell the JSF to Israel, given their history for sharing sensitive military technology with China.

If they are as good as y'all think, let them develop their own fighter, on their own dime.

Sometime back, isreal toke the Phoenix missile and improved it; then turned around and sold it to Chile. At that time, we had an understanding that they were not in anyway to sell any versions of this missile to anyone. The word of trust comes into my mind, when dealing with these people. They have a way of making excuses for breaking every treaty made for what they want. They went as far as killing their own priminster to not have peace in the Middle East. Let them give up territory for these A/C.

In case the panel does not know, Israel does not pay for the arms they get from the US. About two years ago Reuters posted a news story on Yahoo about a meeting that took place with Bush Administration official and the Senate arms committee that Israel was buying a ship load of heavy bomb ordinance(similar to the ones used on Lebanon. After Reuters completed there story investigation it turned out that there is a fund in the US defense budget for weapons for Israel. So they don't pay for their stuff, the American taxpayer's do.
I don't think we should be supplying countries or Israel who want get along with others. Israel used American made weapons when it will fully attacked and boarded a US Navy ship in 1967 because the US military was monitoring its battle communications.

quote:

Originally posted by 16392490:
Sometime back, isreal toke the Phoenix missile and improved it; then turned around and sold it to Chile. At that time, we had an understanding that they were not in anyway to sell any versions of this missile to anyone. The word of trust comes into my mind, when dealing with these people. They have a way of making excuses for breaking every treaty made for what they want. They went as far as killing their own priminster to not have peace in the Middle East. Let them give up territory for these A/C.

Israel never had Phoenix. You maybe thinking of Sidewinder and Python.

quote:

Originally posted by 5326908:
In case the panel does not know, Israel does not pay for the arms they get from the US. About two years ago Reuters posted a news story on Yahoo about a meeting that took place with Bush Administration official and the Senate arms committee that Israel was buying a ship load of heavy bomb ordinance(similar to the ones used on Lebanon. After Reuters completed there story investigation it turned out that there is a fund in the US defense budget for weapons for Israel. So they don't pay for their stuff, the American taxpayer's do.
I don't think we should be supplying countries or Israel who want get along with others. Israel used American made weapons when it will fully attacked and boarded a US Navy ship in 1967 because the US military was monitoring its battle communications.

Now we boarded the Liberty too? Were we dressed like corsairs? Study some history, and stop posting C*** of dubious value.

Pfeh.

16392490-I advice you not to talk about Rabin Murder, because as it turns out, you do not know history to the same degree as PD.

Rabin was murdered by
a) Igal amir. One lunatic that belongs to the ultra right, which does not represent the whole population.

or:

b)Somebody else (more likely). In that case as Barry Hamish points out, it was for peace-in order to get Peres on the throne and not Bibi.

quote:

Israel Wants JSF As Soon As Possible

What Israel wants, Israel gets (free of charge of course or paid to us by our own tax money ).