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Member |
RE: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,151161,00.html
Shocking stuff. What do you all think? My niece seemed satisfied with her training, but she's a Marine and they do seem to pay more attention to shooting what with the "every Marine a rifleman" philosophy. There being no such thing as a rear in Iraq or Afghanistan all of our people should be well equipped and able to defend themselves at all times. There's no excuse for sending people unproficient in firearms into a war zone. |
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Member |
I think the article brings up some points but it a little on the extreme side. Everybody is going to qualify on their assigned weapon, and for my Soldiers will keep trying until they get it right. I have two going back to the range tomorrow since they failed to qualify the last two times. There are ammo shortages in some places, mainly in TRADOC since the priority goes to MTOE units. In OCS we went to a week long field exercise with less than 30 blanks each for an M-16 and about 100 for the 249 and 240 gunners. That went pretty quick, but we still got the training even if it was by yelling bang-bang. At my next school, BOLC II, we had tons of ammo, both blank and live. Here at Fort Hood ammo isn't an issue, I can send my Soldiers out to a range to qualify anytime. If they don't make it they can keep going back. |
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New Member |
Glad your troops are getting "enough" training. I am not sure what you call qualifying. I was a Marine grunt in Viet Nam in 1966 and 1967. When I got out I joined a national guard Cav unit. By the time I got out we were doing our rifle and pistol qualifications for the whole unit in less than one day. Firing our rifles at 20 yards slow fire. That was the only live fire we did all year, but we did all qualify. Even if some folks only qualified on paper. We were still doing this when I got out after Desert Storm.
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Member |
Ideally the qualification is done on a 300 meter popup range, but the range that is always open is a 25 meter timed fire range. They have 2 minutes to fire 20 rounds prone supported and 2 minutes for 20 rounds unsupported to hit 26 out of 40. The targets are sized to look like 300 meter targets down to 50 meter targets. It does tend to be easier for most than the popup range. I am the opposite though, I do better on the popups than on paper. |
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Experienced Member |
Lots of troops, especially the Guard only get a day or two on the range a year. I can qualify any day of the week but 40 rounds a year is not adequate training.
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Member |
I was at Sill last year for my Arty reunion. The DIs have their hands tied about about how they are allowed to train their recruits, I talked to a DI who had a couple of tours under his belt and he said he could almost pick the recruits that would end up as casalities. Fort Sill basic uses very limited ammo because the recruits train on simulators using air for recoil and sound effects for the weapons firing, the recruits were only sent to the range when they passed the simulators test. As for live fire, if the unit can't qualify on one day, they had better come back the next.
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Member |
There is a huge difference between qualifying with your weapon and being proficient with your weapon. Proficiency begins with comfort, and you can’t be comfortable with a weapon when you are lucky to shoot once a year.
Part of it is a culture issue to me. I can only speak for the Navy, but if you express a desire to shoot a weapon you are often times treated as something less than sane. “If you want to shoot you should have joined the Marines” is something I have heard on more than one occasion. As a Reservist, then anti-weapon culture is even greater. I was in the Reserves for about six years before I was given the opportunity to qualify for the first time. It is also not uncommon for the training to be less than robust under the theory that “you’re never going to need this”. I’m not so sure in today’s environment. |
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New Member |
I absolutely agree with this observation. As a retired Chief Gunner's Mate (7 years Navy, 13 years Coast Guard), the attitude of the Navy regarding small arms training is as described by UndexLT above. As a small arms instructor, my Gunner's Mates and I always tried to provide the best possible training to our shipmates, but once a year is not going to cut it. The Coast Guard on the other hand, probably because of its historical law enforcement mission, takes small arms training very seriously. Most of the units I was in trained at least quarterly to include, fundamentals, practical/tactical shooting and qualifications. I had to jump through some serious hoops to turn my Navy small arms instructor qualification into a Coast Guard qualification. I fired every course and instructed every course under the observation and evaluation of Coast Guard instructors. They did not give away that qualification, they ensured I earned it. Now as a police officer, SWAT operator and law enforcement firarms instructor, I am fighting the old battles I did in the Navy, no time, no ammunition allowance, and an apathetic attitude towards practical small arms training. |
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New Member |
As a former Marine Grunt I had plenty of live fire training especially before going to Iraq. I cross decked to the Army Reserve in 06 and will be mobilizing later this fall for a trip to Afghanistan. I am honestly a bit apprehensive regarding the kind/ amount of weapons training I'll get at Bragg. I'm not so much concerned with me, my training as a grunt and then shooting all the time at home keeps me fresh but some of the other folks in my unit have far less than desirable weapons skills. I reckon I'll find out soon enough. I do however try and help remedy that problem as a weapons instructor. Nothing will help but trigger time.
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Member |
Hold it, You are a Virginian and you can't shoot? I have a retired Army Major friend who leaves there and you better not let him hear you say that, Robert E. Lee would be rolling in his grave... I still qualify three to four times a year, just in case.  |
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Member |
You know what you have to do,train them and lead from the front. Airborne |
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New Member |
I would have to agree with a lot of that.
Speaking from the Army point of view: The Army has placed a new emphasis on Warrior Ethos. I think it's great. Warrior skills are those combat skills like firing a weapon, moving under fire, reacting to contact, engaging the enemy, etc. However, the Army places MORE of an emphasis on Safety. I agree that safety is important. BUT when Safety becomes more of a focus than the warrior skills, then how exactly to you become a warrior? That's not conducive to a warror sprirt. I can't say for sure but I'll bet this frustration is shared by personnel in other branches. |
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Experienced Member |
The whole Warrior Ethos thing seems kind of ridiculous to me. But I'm infantry so maybe the non-inf. types need it. From what I've seen, the Warrior concept has just led to name changes like WLC, instead of PLDC. I have yet to see more time spent on combatives, more time on the rifle range, and more time doing complicated live fires.
My old Guard unit had terrible a terrible time getting ammo. When we trained for Iraq soldiers were only allowed to qualify with their assigned weapons. Therefore, I only qualified with a SAW, not the .50 cal, not the 240B, and not even the M-16. It sure did suck when I went out on my first combat patrol as a .50 cal gunner and I had zero training on that weapons system. My new unit is a lot better, but it is a different state and a different kind of unit. It's sad that I get better training in a non-Infantry unit. |
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Member |
Takes Time To Make Time, The Life You Save Maybe Your Own, And You Can Never Have To Much Training. These are the sayings that will keep you alive on the street, buy your own ammo and write it off on taxes. I am 56 and still qualify on a PTI range and I am 100% Service Connected and SSDI Disabled, I use a Colt Trooper 357, A High Standard Riot Six, and a Mini M-14 using 5.56 ammo. Was a R.R Copper and A college copper, I worked in and outside of Chicago |
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Member |
I hope you know what Det Cord is now... Let me get this stright, in basic you didn't qualify with an M-16 or what ever rifle is the basic compomit of the grunt? But you are qualified with a SAW? My niece who is with the 4ID (Two Tours in Iraq) qualified expert with the pistol,rifle and SAW and she is only a diesel Track Mech. Soon to be an E-5 |
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Experienced Member |
Yeah I qualified in basic with an M-16. But that does not equal proficieny. I went about two and a half years in the national guard without being able to qualify on that weapon, I even tried to sneak onto the range but was kicked off-twice. I also never shot or qualified with the 240B, .50 cal, Mk-19, or the M-9 before I went to Iraq. The same thing happened to the rest of my unit. I was never trained at all with demolitions and before last month I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between time cord, det cord, or certain kinds of electrical cord.
It's not just weapons either. My old company only had a few vehicles and about a week to train with them. I was not an assigned driver at the time so I spent all that training time riding in the back of a truck. My truck's assigned driver was injured later in training and I ended up driving for a good part of my tour. My first combat patrol as a driver came at night, which was also my first experience using PVS-14's and driving at night. Pretty hairy and totally unecessary. I hope guard and reserve soldiers are getting better training now, but in 2004, my unit did not. |
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Member |
"There should be legislation to provide a complete plan for organizing the great body of volunteers behind the Regular Army and the National Guard when war has come. Congressional assistance should be given those who are endeavoring to promote rifle practice so that our men, in the Services and out of them, may know how to use the rifle. While teams representing the United States won the Rifle and Revolver Championships of the World against all comers in England this year, it is unfortunately true that the great body of our citizens shoot less and less as time goes on. To meet this we should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services, by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving the peace of the world. Fit to hold our own against the strong nations of the earth, our voice for peace will carry to the ends of the earth. Unprepared, and therefore unfit, we must sit dumb and helpless to defend ourselves, protect others, or preserve peace. The first step — in the direction to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come — is to teach our men to shoot." --
Theodore Roosevelt Message to Congress, 1908 |
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Member |
Lots of great posts, here, and they appear to support the author's complaint that our military is not focusing enough on the nuts and bolts of personal and unit protection. That's it, I'm going to be writing to my Senators, Webb and Warner (not that a former Marine handgun instructor like Webb is going to have any problem with my position), and to my Congressman and urging that some tough questions be asked about training.
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New Member |
Roger that! |
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Member |
I thought I was the only old timer here... A thomper in one hand and a 45 in the other... Do I call you Duke or Mr. Wayne  |
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