quote:

Originally posted by jake64:
RE: http://www.military.com/opinio...15202,192054,00.html

Which American war was your service in?

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Originally posted by owlshadow:
While not agreeing with the author on 100% of his talking points, he is painfully correct on some. First is the demonstrated arrogance and ignorance of the politicians running the White House. Second is the importance of the "Moral" aspect of the "War on Terror". As a nation, we have overlooked repeatedly several lessons that should have been assimilated by now. First is that we constantly complain about the drug trade and other than stamp our feet and say, "Stop growing that stuff", we do little or nothing (Thank the Int'l Banking Community for this). We learned long ago that to get rid of one economy, you have to provide a viable alternative or the little guy can't feed the kids. It's that simple and God knows we have the agri-tech to make this happen.

Second point is we haven't publicly, at least acknowledged the development of interrogation techniques that are both "kinder, gentler" while still being effective. We spend tens of billions of dollars on weapon systems, now we need to invest in a system that works, while being complaint with International laws and perceptions. Let's face it, water boarding is a lost cause. Thank the press for that. Whether it works or not, is torture or not no longer matters. The press and all its foreign owned reporters have seen to that with their collective bad acting. Time to move on. To the author's point, we cannot afford to go down a path that causes division. Let's move on. Take a page from FDR's play book. Persons that posed a threat to National Security simply disappeared, being quietly tucked away in Sanatoriums for the duration. Today's leaders need to understand the stakes they are playing for and remember that they dictate the policy on "Need to Know", not the press.

More than "enuf said"

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Originally posted by SFC_Retired:
How come the moral argument is always attempted to be raised when someone doesn't agree with a tactic but doesn't have an alternative solution to solving a problem.

There had been a number of alternatives provided from many sources. Sadly they were ignored.

All of this talk about how bad waterboarding is (for 3 guys) is ridiculous

We really do not know if it was only three.

when the same people who speak against it won't utter a word about our foe's tactics of videotaping the beheading of not only innocent people, but of people Westerners in particular.

It is not about them, it is about us as a Nation.

It is indisputable how Islamists take special measures in the way they kill Westerner's (Beheadings - White People in particular) yet when they kill their fellow Muslims they are rarely, if ever, beheaded on video and spewed out on the internet for worldwide distribution. Yet, none of these so called morality-policemen will go on television or in print and denounce these people. Even more disturbing is the lengths the media goes to to hide or minimize their immoral acts in an attempt to prevent the American people from rallying against a sworn enemy of them and seeing what true evil looks like.

Really! I seem to remember the media coverage was running and stepping over one another reporting on the atrocities committed.

How can anyone compare waterboarding or humiliating photo's taken of prisoners to the inhumane acts of our enemy?

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Originally posted by DaleAS:
Any potential argument the author may have is muted by his total lack of experience.

Experience...our scientists had only theory to work with when the constructed the first nuclear weapon. How many professors over the years at our military academies had no combat experience, and yet, they educated future officers in the area of tactics and war? There are thousands of examples available that clearly demonstrate one need not have experienced an event to understand it and its complexities.

Following the direction prescribed by academics over those with both education AND experience is always fraught with danger.

One could say the same thing about those with both.

William Lund did have one good idea; talk to those like General Jones whose words carry the weight of both a superior education strengthened by superior experience and a long career of superior leadership in both military and political arenas.

Otherwise; remember that the main trouble with government is that there are too many civilians in it.

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Again, it is not about the enemy but about America and the type of nation we hold ourselves out to be to the world.

S/F Gordon

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Originally posted by SFC_Retired:

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Again, it is not about the enemy but about America and the type of nation we hold ourselves out to be to the world.

S/F Gordon

-----------------------------------------------

Well S/F Gordon, at least you seem to think your opinion is warranted more than everyone else here that doesn't agree with Lind like you do.

Excuse me but, I rendered an opinion based upon historical fact as it pertains to Mr. Linds article. Please point out to me, where I stated my opinion was dominant or suggested other opinions were possibly valid?

I am only thankful that even though (as you claim) our Founder's had no idea what they were doing,

Please point out in this thread where I made such a comment? Why manufacture comments or opinions never made by someone? If anything, my comment regarding the Constitutional protection afforded the Press is a work of genius by our Founders. Though many on the right blame it for the many maladies created for America by ignorant politicians. So again, and in typical fashion, you invent comments and attempt to attribute them to someone and knowingly understand (well, maybe you don't) that your post is a work of fiction.

our Fathers and Grandfathers knew exactly what they needed to do to defeat sworn enemies. Europe is better because of it. Japan is better because of it. America is GREAT because of it.

Well genius, what has the above got to do with our current situation? What has WW 2, Second Generational warfare got to do with Fourth Generational warfare? There is no comparison with then and now. It is exactly one of the problems we have with our current military philosophy.

For someone with such an eloquent skill at attempting to contrast opposing views, it's a shame your talents are being wasted on a lost cause (support of Liberalism).

Surprise...America exists, and is so successful because of progressive theory and philososphy...it is certainly not due to conservative theory and philosophy. Perhaps you should study a little history...especially the writings of our Founders and the influence of the Enlightenment on their lives. It wasn't conservative thoughts and ideas that were embraced by our Founders. As an aside, WW 2 was the last attempt at repudiating the philosophy and ideas of the Enlightenment.

You were right though, it's not about the enemy, it's about America. It's about the America we are, not the America that you "Hope" it will "Change" to become.

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Posted Fri 05 June 2009 05:16 AM Hide Post

I'm sure your vast experiences in life when compared to our Founders and the establishment of the new America would be a significant improvement. Lets face it, our Founders had no idea what they were doing. The 'main trouble' that exists are some Americans who do not wish, and do not want to abide by the Constitution...that is the 'main trouble' with our situation.

S/F Gordon

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Originally posted by SFC_Retired:

quote:

Posted Fri 05 June 2009 05:16 AM Hide Post

I'm sure your vast experiences in life when compared to our Founders and the establishment of the new America would be a significant improvement. Lets face it, our Founders had no idea what they were doing. The 'main trouble' that exists are some Americans who do not wish, and do not want to abide by the Constitution...that is the 'main trouble' with our situation.

S/F Gordon

Does that ring a bell Gordon?

Probably not because you are spouting so much rhetoric that you can't keep up with your own ideological rants! (especially when you try and claim that WW2 was an attempt at repudiating the philosophy and ideas of the Enlightment).

It's apparent that you only attempt to use history to support your beliefs as opposed to being factually correct. To say the Second Generational warfare has nothing to do with Fourth Generational warfare is one of the most ignorant opinions you have displayed, but it does go hand in hand with your assumption that America is successful because of progressive theory. You are truly a product of our educational systems false teachings about our history.

But then again, I guess I'm making that up too, like the comment you denied making about our Founders just 3 threads above this one.

At least we can all tell what school of thought you were raised to believe regardless of the facts.

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Originally posted by maluka:
Based on the direction (or lack of it) this administration is going the comments by Lind will be a moot point. I don't agree with most of them anyway. His political views lean to far left based on this and his other writings. This individual in the white house is selling the US of A out to our enemies. We will be owned by the Chinese and run by the Muslims possibly within his term at the rate he is going. If North Korea or Iran launches anything he does not have the fortitude to do anything about it. He is too busy apologizing for our strengths and world leadership to do anything to save our nation. How can anyone go to the home of someone else and announce "we are unworthy". If that is your belief then sit down, shut up, stay home and give us back our constitution. By the way did any of you see the story over the weekend about how free speech is going to be modified so some people can not speak harshly about the stimulus package?

We are becoming very weak economically and this will give him the "power" to take over more of our businesses as they fail "for the good of the nation". Remember his comments that the middle and lower income people will not see an increase in taxes. Are you watching what is going on???? How many jobs have we lost? Are you watching what is going on with your taxes and the various fees. They are climbing but if you don't look and read the information you will be blinded by their attempts to conceal the truth with the help of the media that put him in office. Look at the no-pork budget, 1100 pages, congress passed without even reading it. That "budget" was written way before the Jan 20 swear-in and was then approved and NO ONE READ IT. There was nearly ONE TRILLION OF PORK IN IT and charles schumer of New York says "the American citizen does not care about pork". Well do you? Let your representatives and senators know.

Those responsible for the collapse of the housing market are running for re-election and will no doubt be anointed by him. He complained about bonuses the banks received but CONGRESS, FREDDIE MAC, FANNIE MAE and others received bonuses that made AIG's look like nothing. Where was the outrage???? Did you get a bonus at work assuming you still have a job? This individual either does not have a clue what he is doing or he is working toward destroying AMERICA. He is surrounded by people who make the communists look good. When has the government ever done anything that works except for building highways and producing a military? The congress is destroying our military with budget cuts as we sit and do nothing. Are the highways next?

Anyone who likes this "guy" needs to do a little research and read Noam Chumsky and Saul Alinsky to see how he got here and where he is going. In addition if you read "Adolf Hitler" by John Toland Volume 1, Pages 95-285 you will see the track he has followed. These three readings are like a blueprint and will scare you. We will be a third world nation very soon. I am not being dramatic but voicing my opinion based on a few decades of work and educational plus life experience. The reason I used "individual" is because I can not think of a nice term to use and I did not want to upset the moderator.

Also start reading the foreign press. They have the balls to print what is really going on. The foreign press includes socialist nations and even those who have lived under dictators and fascists. They know what they are talking about when it comes to identifying a disaster in the making.

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Originally posted by Comanche_21:
Has anyone mentioned to the author that the radical extremists within the middle east have been at war with America since 1979 and really don't give a damn about any rules or International law to execute their ideology??? The enemy only understands one concept and thats FORCE.

The country has been at war since September 11, 2001 yet many people have forgotten what we are fighting for !! thats to defeat Al-Queada and such proxy groups like the Taliban so they can't mount another attack on America or our interests here at home or overseas. Enough of this spineless tip toeing around the world by our pathetic Democrat leaders in Washington. They have no interest nor the backbone to defend America or our US Constitution and it shows every day in the news. If only we had real leadership like we had back in World War II with the likes of George Patton and Eisenhower and Nimitz, we would have won this global war on terror years ago.

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Originally posted by yanqui69:
The president needs to stay out of the operational constraints on military campaigns. According to Sun Tzu the following rules apply:

12. There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army:—

13. (1) By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey. This is called hobbling the army.

14. (2) By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army. This causes restlessness in the soldier’s minds.

15. (3) By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances. This shakes the confidence of the soldiers.

16. But when the army is restless and distrustful, trouble is sure to come from the other feudal
princes. This is simply bringing anarchy into the army, and flinging victory away.

17. Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.

As far as Lind's dislike of CSA and indirect firepower, Sun Tzu states the following:

24. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.

2. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory is long in coming, then men’s weapons will grow dull and their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town, you will exhaust your strength.

19. In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.


20. The onrush of a conquering force is like the bursting of pent-up waters into a chasm a thousand
fathoms deep.

10. In battle, there are not more than two methods of attack—the direct and the indirect; yet these two in combination give rise to an endless series of maneuvers.

11. The direct and the indirect lead on to each other in turn. It is like moving in a circle—you never come to an end. Who can exhaust the possibilities of their combination?

15. Country in which there are precipitous cliffs with torrents running between, deep natural hollows, confined places, tangled thickets, quagmires and crevasses, should be left with all possible speed and not approached.

19. Rapidity is the essence of war: take advantage of the enemy’s unreadiness, make your way by
unexpected routes, and attack unguarded spots.

Lind continues to be a religous zealot of Van Creveld's 4GW when there are other opinions on it:
Mr. Lind relies too much on Van Creveld's analysis on 4GW. He might want to read some criticism from the Strategic Studies Institute's Dr. Antulio J. Echevarria II's " The Problem with Fourth-Generation War" at

http://www.strategicstudiesins.../pdffiles/pub674.pdf