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RE: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,178175,00.html
Are there enough Israelis, who are fed up enough with the settlers, to change this doomsday scenario? It will take much more than a clear majority of the Labour-Left parties, because the settlers don't respect Israeli laws and more than they respect the human rights of Palestinians. |
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I would also think that the Palestinians don't respect the human rights of Israelis either since they seem to enjoy firing rockets into civilian populations. Regardless what you think of the situation, it happens on both sides so i would think twice before condemning one side or the other out of hand. |
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Do I detect some anti-Semitism? |
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mattkay4:
If the American people ever began to think about the history of Palestine, and the record of abuse meted out to Palestinians by Zionists, they would swiftly realize that it was the Zionists who have perpetrated violence in this country. Palestinian violence has been triggered by provocations from the Zionists in an unbroken string at least since the 1930s. As long as the Zionists can equivocate acts of defiance by the Palestinians against their oppression by Zionists, with the acts of oppression intended to ethnically cleanse Palestine of nearly all Palestinians, then they can succeed in deceiving the American people into believing that the Palestinians are "just getting what they deserve". As long as Americans are deceived into thinking that Jews, who came from the Caucasus region, have a legitimate right to drive out Palestinians, who have lived in Palestine since the time of Jesus Christ, we will consider the Jews to be defending their "homeland" from Islamic nationalism, instead of as European colonials out to eliminate the local population. Obviously, Misanthrope2 feels as strongly about this as I do. You wryly dismissed him as "Anti-Semitic", so you would not have to address the details of his commentary. But this is not "Anti-Semitism" for a number of reasons:
The very fact that the American government has acted as if the unalienable rights of Palestinians were not in fact "unalienable", is as great an affront to American political ideology as that "crime against humanity" which was enforced during the first "four score and seven years", when our country legitimized slavery. |
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What is up with the hatred of Israel and the Jewish people. Some people act like they are the ones printing our $$ bills.
I know for a fact I'll catch heat on this but you know what, I'd rather be allies with Israel that those of radicals/countries whose religion plainly teaches them to wipe us INFIDELS off this earth. |
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AGBrina,
I agree that this is a human rights issue, but the Isrealis have just as much claim to the territory as the Palistinians. There exists both a Palistinian and an Isreali state. I try to have compassion for both the Jewish people and the Palistinians, shouldn't we all? Don't all people have the inherent right to the pursuit of liberty, personal property, and self governance? So far, the views you have demonstrated are: 1. Anti Isreal 2. Anti War in Iraq 3. Anti George Bush You seem to share a common ideology with exreme Islam, and that's not exactly a highly respected position. Just wanted to point that out, if that's not what you intended to portray than please let me know. I think the Jewish people have a right to live, just like the Palistinians do. It's time that they have their own soveriegn territory, free from oppression. Oh, and below is my evidence for Israel's claim to the region (from Wiki): “11th century BCE, the first of a series of Israelite kingdoms and states established rule over the region [Modern day Israel]; these Israelite kingdoms and states ruled intermittently for the following one thousand years.” “Between the time of the Israelite kingdoms and the 7th-century Muslim conquests, the Land of Israel fell under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Sassanian, and Byzantine rule.” “Control of the region transferred between the Umayyads,[30] Abbasids,[31] and Crusaders over the next six centuries, before falling in the hands of the Mamluk Sultanate, in 1260” “In 1516, the Land of Israel became a part of the Ottoman Empire, which ruled the region until the 20th century” “…in the 12th century, Catholic persecution of Jews led to a steady stream leaving Europe to settle in the Holy Land, increasing in numbers after Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492” "First Aliyah: The first large wave of modern immigration began in 1881" "The Second Aliyah (1904–1914), began after the Kishinev pogrom. Some 40,000 Jews settled in Palestine." "In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine for the express purpose of 'placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home'. "The Third Aliyah (1919–1923) and Fourth Aliyah (1924–1929) together brought 100,000 Jews to Palestine." "The rise of Nazism in the 1930s led to the Fifth Aliyah, with an influx of a quarter of a million Jews." This message has been edited. Last edited by: joshua_sergeant, |
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Sorry, my education and background is not in the study of religions, but I'm fairly certain that anti-semitism is defined as a prejudice against, or hostility toward Jews as a group and is usually distinguished by a combination of biases (religious, racial, cultural and ethnic). Based upon the definition I have used (which I believe is the accepted definiton used by most, including at institutions of higher learning within the US and Europe), I stand by my post. |
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joshua_sergeant and mattkay:
popsiq has started a discussion board, called "West Bank Tales" which deals with this subject more directly. (More on that later.) Mr. Lind states rather matter of factly what Israelis have no problem ackowledging: that they control U.S. Mideast policy. If fact, the best place to keep up on who the players are, which enable them to maintain control over the direction of the U.S. government both foreign and domestic, is to read the on site versions of The Jerusalem Post and Al Ha'aretz! Among most Israelis, the settlers are the problem! These same newspapers report on one extreme act of defiance against the Israeli Government by the settlers after another, as well as their acts of cruelty toward the Palestinians. Meanwhile, at "West Bank Tales", I gave the readers there two Jewish websites, which give a very different account of Zionism and of the practices of present-day Zionists: www.nkusa.org www.gush-shalom.org I invite you to the West Bank Tales discussion board to join the others whose view of the Middle east has been acquired through Zionist-approved sources. By the way, Wikipedia had a very different, and decidedly Pro-Palestinian, presentation of the history of the conflict until about a year ago. I used it to great effect during a long series of point/counter-point arguments against panzermeisterin a forum entitle "In Defense Of Zionism". When I revisited Wikipedia a few months ago, I found that it had been re-written and that it was very difficult -impossible in some cases- to find the case histories which had been posted before. You may have heard before that Zionists have revised history to suit their purposes. Well they have in the case of Wikipedia. So, please go to gush-shalom to read the personal account of Uri Avnery of the history of Zionism in the 20th-21st centuries, since he lived through most of it. As I said on the other board, there are legions of Jewish websites, sponsored by institutions and intellectuals, which range from criticism to condemnation of Zionists and the variants of their political philosophy on both religious and secular grounds. True, Zionists have succeeded in equating criticism of their movement and their practices, with Ant-Semitism. It is commonly accepted; but it is not true. Personally, I have been an advocate of Two Homelands In One Country, with Equal Liberty and Justice For All. Very American and very enlightened, don't you think? The Two-State Solution would be worse than Segregation in the USA and Apartheid in South Africa. But all men and wome sharing citizenship in one country with equal status and protection before the Law would be a very good thing. I understand that this is the "hot idea" circulating among the students and faculty at Tel Aviv. |
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I can accept your opinion, as you have clarified your position. I would take exception to the reference that Wiki had a pro this or pro that. Everything I listed from Wiki was historical fact (ei. dates/events) not a commentary or opinion.
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joshua_sergeant:
I must admit that I over-reached when I suggested that the re-write of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict of history was "revisionist". It was revised to add supporting claims by pro-Zionists and to delete countering claims by pro-Palestinians. This inferred that what the pro-zionists added were not "factual", which is wrong. As I recall my reading of Wikipedia, the total number of Jews in Palestine at the time of the Mandate was quite small; the majority of which arrived over the preceding 20 years. So, for all the conversions and emigrations which occurred after the destruction of the Second Temple, the numbers of Jews in the land called Palestine were not significant relative to total population. More relevant to the issue of population, is the record of forced conversions. From the time of Justinian, the local population was forced to become Christian. After the Moslems took control, the population was forced to convert to Islam. The Palestinians living in Palestine during the Mandate period were largely descended from the same people who were Jewish at the time of Christ, becoming Christian later, and then Moslem. Ironic, isn't it, that they would be displaced by Ashkenazi(European) Jews whose ethnic origins are in the Ural/Caucasus region of Eastern Europe and who adopted Judaism in the 11th or 12th centuries! [By the way. It is a pleasure to 'disagree' with you, as we exchange point vs. point when the intensity of our emotion is less than than that of our intellects.] |
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I think you may have misunderstood what I was inferring in my original post. My original post was meant to mean that Misanthrope2 wrote in a way that appeared to show anti-semiitic opinion. I recommend a good book, "The Fighting Never Stopped" by Patrick Brogan. He is British so it has a different slant on things compared to the American view. It was required reading in an early Poly-Sci class years ago. However, it has excellent information on a number of conflicts and is quite informative. I do not think the settlers are the problem, per se. They may be a part of it, but the issue runs much deeper than that. One thing that seems to be overlooked is that Palistine also included parts of Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. Why not an outcry for those countries to give up land? The truth is, the Palistinans are not welcome in most parts of the Middle East. Why is that? |
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Agreed, but it compels me to think deeper than that. First, there are now two countries: Israel and Palistine. There is plenty of room for each in their respective countries. Second, whether or not they have always been Jewish, they retain their identity as Israelites, just as most Native Americans do. They haven't had a home, free of persecution, for a long time. I think they, just as we all do as a collective society, have a right to their own land, the inalienable rights referred to by our own forefathers, and the pursuit of individual liberty.
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suspended pending review,Nemesis |
Personally, I think you just hate Jews...  And "Anti-Semitism" is too old a construct, whose meaning is clear, to point out that Arabs are "Semites." As a supporter of the "existance" of a Jewish State in Palestine, I am also an opponent of their policies for the last thirty years, and basically agree with Linds analysis. The sympathy that Israel justly got in it's fight for an independent state, is now running on empty. To an extent they've become a mirror image of what they profess to oppose - Even so, a good third of the Israeli population would agree with me in their absolute disdain of their Palestinian policies. Saying all that the Arabs have yet to come to terms with the existance of any Jewish State. As for Koestler's book, and interesting tidbit of history, (and a good read) more or less put into abeyance by DNA evidence. No doubt Some Jews of today are part Khazar, as they are part Russian or part Arab - So what? Dave |
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mattkay4:
Thank you for referring the book to me. About once per month, I take roundtrip trainride between Brooklyn, NY and Rochester, NY (more than 7 hours each way). I'll look for this book to pass the time on the next trip. |
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Your welcome. |
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