RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,164545,00.html

In many years of my research and studies.... i still can not believed of what really matter most inside the war.

The art of passion in killing people becomes a tragic memoirs to many civilians and to the community.

But still the question is, who are those bombers that uses civilians in threatening the lives of many countries even their economy.

I can not believed about the past years that many people died because of fighting without any reason just to gain power and money to control the Government and continue stealing their funds.

I am a witness of a tragic that happened here when i am just a student, many communists students becomes rich because of stealing money to the Government Fund that came in U.S. Aid.

Jane your answer is a logical reply. When calculated against past wars it is a responsible loss.

First off, I have know idea what the OP was saying.

Secondly, I knew the media would be jumping all over this. Iraq was out of the news for months, then came the 5th year anniversary and then 4,000 deaths. It's pretty sick how that gets so much coverage.

Just count the number of times you'll hear Obama and Hillary say 4,000 this week. Almost like they've been waiting for that number

I'll make sure to listen to ALL the candidates this week, because McCain will also find a way to use this number to his (perceived) advantage.

But the opinions that matter most will be the families of those lost and wounded, and they have every right to protest these ever escalating numbers.

Do not expect main-stream media to report that in five years combat in Iraq, U.S. Forces have experienced fewer KIAs than we did during an average month of World War II.

According to U.S. Army CoS Gen. George C. Marshall, the "Average battle deaths per month" [of U.S. Forces] during World War II was 4,576. FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!

quote:

Originally posted by foxred03:
First off, I have know idea what the OP was saying.

Secondly, I knew the media would be jumping all over this. Iraq was out of the news for months, then came the 5th year anniversary and then 4,000 deaths. It's pretty sick how that gets so much coverage.

Ignore and it will go away very rarely works. Iraq and Afghanistan cases in point. What mean perhaps is that bad news gets more coverage.

5 years in, the only real hope is in somebody's sound bites and 4 000 US dead to show for it - not even considering the other costs to America and Iraq. Somebody should be on it.

The death toll in Iraq is as tragic as any death toll in any conflict. But has anybody bothered to ask the families of the dead what their opinions on Iraq(the conflict) are? It would be nice to know what they think in stead of allowing the media to speak for them.

quote:

Originally posted by FortesFortunaJuvat:
Just count the number of times you'll hear Obama and Hillary say 4,000 this week. Almost like they've been waiting for that number

By the end of the week they could be saying four thousand and ten. Considering it's a case of you bust it, you fix it. 400 was too many.

quote:

Originally posted by 13433578:
Do not expect main-stream media to report that in five years combat in Iraq, U.S. Forces have experienced fewer KIAs than we did during an average month of World War II.

According to U.S. Army CoS Gen. George C. Marshall, the "Average battle deaths per month" [of U.S. Forces] during World War II was 4,576. FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!

How do compare WWII with the Iraq war? Your attempting to compare a low intensity conflict with all out WORLD WAR.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenThompson:

quote:

Originally posted by 13433578:
Do not expect main-stream media to report that in five years combat in Iraq, U.S. Forces have experienced fewer KIAs than we did during an average month of World War II.

According to U.S. Army CoS Gen. George C. Marshall, the "Average battle deaths per month" [of U.S. Forces] during World War II was 4,576. FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!

How do compare WWII with the Iraq war? Your attempting to compare a low intensity conflict with all out WORLD WAR.

Just like Ollie North, in his latest "piece"...?

http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164394,00.html

So far, plenty of blame-gaming, no responsible discussion, on this forum or in the media.

Exactly one year ago, Gen. McCaffrey filed this After Action Report (AAR). I have summarized the topic sentences, and added a grade A-F for progress on each front:

quote:

After Action Report
GeneralBarry R McCaffrey USA (Ret)
9-16 March 2007

• "Iraq is ripped by a low grade civil war which has worsened to catastrophic levels."
  C+ Iraq's civil war has moderated somewhat.
  
  
• "Three million Iraqis are internally displaced or have fled the country."
  D: Those Iraqis have not come back & the exodus continues.
  
  
• "There is no function of government that operates effectively across the nation--- not health care, not justice, not education, not transportation, not labor and commerce, not electricity, not oil production. "
  D+: Some sectors show moderate signs of improvement.
  
  
• "The police force is feared as a Shia militia in uniform which is responsible for thousands of extra-judicial killings. There is no effective nation-wide court system."
  D-: Iraq's failed justice system is a train-wreck.
  
  
• "The Iraqi Army is too small and is very badly equipped."
  B: Training proceeds apace.
  
  
• "In total, enemy insurgents or armed sectarian militias probably exceed 100,000 armed fighters. Their sophistication, numbers, and lethality go up -- not down -- as they incur staggering battle losses."
  B-: Many insurgents have joined our side ... but they are fickle allies.
  
  
• "We are at the 'knee of the curve'... we are now routinely extending nearly all combat units in both Iraq and Afghanistan ... the current deployment requirement ... is not sustainable."
  D: The surge needs more troops, but we do not have them.
  
  
• "Iraq’s neighbors are a problem --- not part of the solution."
  D+: At least this has not gotten worse.
  
  
• "Our allies are leaving ... by January 2008 we will be on our own."
  D-: Events developed as foreseen.
  
  
• "In summary, the US Armed Forces are in a position of strategic peril. "
  B-: We have stopped the deterioration.

So here is the overall summary ... sobering but not hopeless:

The Surge Report Card

• Iraqi reconciliation: C+
  
• Iraqi repatriation: D
  
• Iraqi governance: D+
  
• Iraqi justice system: D-
  
• Iraqi army: B
  
• Insurgent suppression: B-
  
• Troop reserves: D
  
• Iraq neighbors: D+
  
• Ally support: D-
  
• Hope of winning: B-
  -------------------------
  
• Overall surge success: C-
  

To state my opinion plainly, we should commit to winning and therefore, redouble our efforts. To state my gravest concerns plainly, we do not have the troops to achieve this goal, nor do our civilian leaders have a "Plan B".

I just took his quote of General Marshall as a comparison of approximate body count for different time periods. The two wars have little or nothing in common except Iraq was aligned with the Axis until defeat by the Brits.

We've gotten so far afield of the reason for planning Iraq's change of government well advance of March 19th, 2003. The toll of American deaths and financial burden was much greater leading up to the invasion. The dramatic consequences in the middle east and its effect on the world community of doing nothing far outnumbered the past five years.

quote:

Originally posted by Weatherguesser:
I'll make sure to listen to ALL the candidates this week, because McCain will also find a way to use this number to his (perceived) advantage.

But the opinions that matter most will be the families of those lost and wounded, and they have every right to protest these ever escalating numbers.

I agree with Weatherguesser completely. Furthermore, there are plenty of statistics available to all politicians and pundits to support or refute any argument. Additionally, comparisons to previous wars mean nothing - different times, different causes, different circumstances,.

The main question(s) that must be addressed at this point are: "Should we continue to deploy US Forces to Iraq, and if yes, how many and for what purpose"? Shihites, Sunnis and other factions will continue their violent methods no matter how many US forces we put on the ground.

The next time the "finish the job" quote is used by any politician, I wish someone would follow up by asking what that means. If you ask 100 different politicians, you'll get at least 70 different answers.

quote:

Originally posted by rayevinsonsr:
I just took his quote of General Marshall as a comparison of approximate body count for different time periods. The two wars have little or nothing in common except Iraq was aligned with the Axis until defeat by the Brits.

We've gotten so far afield of the reason for planning Iraq's change of government well advance of March 19th, 2003. The toll of American deaths and financial burden was much greater leading up to the invasion. The dramatic consequences in the middle east and its effect on the world community of doing nothing far outnumbered the past five years.

Do you have some Foxnews stats or even Rush talking points to back up the above?

quote:

Originally posted by usmc_family:
So far, plenty of blame-gaming, no responsible discussion, on this forum or in the media.

Exactly one year ago, Gen. McCaffrey filed this After Action Report (AAR). I have summarized the topic sentences, and added a grade A-F for progress on each front:

quote:

After Action Report
GeneralBarry R McCaffrey USA (Ret)
9-16 March 2007

• "Iraq is ripped by a low grade civil war which has worsened to catastrophic levels."
  C+ Iraq's civil war has moderated somewhat.
  
  
• "Three million Iraqis are internally displaced or have fled the country."
  D: Those Iraqis have not come back & the exodus continues.
  
  
• "There is no function of government that operates effectively across the nation--- not health care, not justice, not education, not transportation, not labor and commerce, not electricity, not oil production. "
  D+: Some sectors show moderate signs of improvement.
  
  
• "The police force is feared as a Shia militia in uniform which is responsible for thousands of extra-judicial killings. There is no effective nation-wide court system."
  D-: Iraq's failed justice system is a train-wreck.
  
  
• "The Iraqi Army is too small and is very badly equipped."
  B: Training proceeds apace.
  
  
• "In total, enemy insurgents or armed sectarian militias probably exceed 100,000 armed fighters. Their sophistication, numbers, and lethality go up -- not down -- as they incur staggering battle losses."
  B-: Many insurgents have joined our side ... but they are fickle allies.
  
  
• "We are at the 'knee of the curve'... we are now routinely extending nearly all combat units in both Iraq and Afghanistan ... the current deployment requirement ... is not sustainable."
  D: The surge needs more troops, but we do not have them.
  
  
• "Iraq’s neighbors are a problem --- not part of the solution."
  D+: At least this has not gotten worse.
  
  
• "Our allies are leaving ... by January 2008 we will be on our own."
  D-: Events developed as foreseen.
  
  
• "In summary, the US Armed Forces are in a position of strategic peril. "
  B-: We have stopped the deterioration.

So here is the overall summary ... sobering but not hopeless:

The Surge Report Card

• Iraqi reconciliation: C+
  
• Iraqi repatriation: D
  
• Iraqi governance: D+
  
• Iraqi justice system: D-
  
• Iraqi army: B
  
• Insurgent suppression: B-
  
• Troop reserves: D
  
• Iraq neighbors: D+
  
• Ally support: D-
  
• Hope of winning: B-
  -------------------------
  
• Overall surge success: C-
  

To state my opinion plainly, we should commit to winning and therefore, redouble our efforts. To state my gravest concerns plainly, we do not have the troops to achieve this goal, nor do our civilian leaders have a "Plan B".

We need a draft and we need it now.

When The Civilians Of Iraq Rise Up And Start Killing The Ones That Keep Them Down, We Will All Win.

quote:

We need a draft and we need it now.

Absolutely !

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FortesFortunaJuvat:
Just count the number of times you'll hear Obama and Hillary say 4,000 this week. Almost like they've been waiting for that number[/QUOTE


First, my condolence to the families of the ones lost. Well, at least you are clairvoyant. Just think, if the people that got us here were just as perceptive there would never have been a reason to quote those numbers. It would do all candidates well to at least acknowledge the lost.

quote:

We need a draft and we need it now.

Too True!