RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,164259,00.html

Sucks to be Russian army.

It's hardly surprising given how endemic bullying is in the Russian forces (and perhaps to a lesser extent in Russian society as a whole, from Putin's threats to his neighbours and NGOs to the exceptionally boorish Russian tourists one meets). The treatment of recruits, usually fairly vulnerable conscripts, often seems to go far beyond hazing and well into the realm of torture.
Of course it's counter-productive too, units riven by fear and loathing are generally less effective that those with a sense of common feeling something which might well explain the pretty poor performance of the Russian Army in Chechnya.

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Originally posted by Bladensburg:
well explain the pretty poor performance of the Russian Army in Chechnya.

Are you talking about 1994-1999 time period? The debacle in the first part of war in Chechnya had nothing with individual soldier, but with the f'd up leadership at the top. Since 1999 the Russian Army has been doing all right over there (that's why you don't hear much about it in the news any more).

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Originally posted by pilgrim_23:

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Originally posted by Bladensburg:
well explain the pretty poor performance of the Russian Army in Chechnya.

Are you talking about 1994-1999 time period? The debacle in the first part of war in Chechnya had nothing with individual soldier, but with the f'd up leadership at the top. Since 1999 the Russian Army has been doing all right over there (that's why you don't hear much about it in the news any more).

Both really, performance wasn't brilliant in the second Chechen war by all accounts and it was only overwhelming superiority in terms of kit and numbers coupled with an apparent utter disregard for civvie casualties that won it. Russian casualties were pretty high, even by official accounts, given their relative superiority. I will agree that the Russian leadership has been somewhat more robust although I do wonder whether it was really worth it given the the destruction wrought and loss of life makes Iraq look like a model of humane intervention.

There have been a couple of books by ex Russian soldiers published in the UK recently that paint a less than flattering picture of the Russian Army in Chechnya 1999-2001 and both allege that the climate of fear within Russian units contributed both to their own poor performance and to the high incidence of what in Western armies would probably be classed as war crimes.

I wonder what the alcoholism rate is in the Russian Army? I'm pretty sure Russian Vodka has the same deoressant effect as US Jack Daniels'. Maybe Putin will listen to Obama and raise the drinking age. Firearms and automobiles are a dangereous chaser to vodka.

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Originally posted by gmost:
I wonder what the alcoholism rate is in the Russian Army? I'm pretty sure Russian Vodka has the same deoressant effect as US Jack Daniels'. Maybe Putin will listen to Obama and raise the drinking age. Firearms and automobiles are a dangereous chaser to vodka.

Not to mention the drinking of Russian hydraulic fluid
God bless and protect all our people in harms way where ever they are.
Pro Deo et Patria

quote:

Originally posted by gmost:
I wonder what the alcoholism rate is in the Russian Army? I'm pretty sure Russian Vodka has the same deoressant effect as US Jack Daniels'. Maybe Putin will listen to Obama and raise the drinking age. Firearms and automobiles are a dangereous chaser to vodka.

I doubt restricting booze would have any effect, they'd just make their own with potentially even worse results. Mohammed is about the only commander to dry his soldiers out to any useful extent .
It has to be pointed out that as well as being a cause of problems alcohol can also be symptom. Serious "quiet", spirits drinking as opposed to going out on the lash is quite often asign that soldiers are demoralised.

Or it could be good ole fear. With the Cold War "heating up" again, the fear of possibly facing battle hardened Americans with superior technology has those ruskies shook. So shook, they are taking their lives in droves. Good riddance to bad rubbish. They have always been the enemy and many of the guys that have served during my time in (88-94)will always see them as the enemy....no matter how many walls fall or what form of democracy they institute. I say let more take their own lives....less our boys will possibly face on the battlefield!

I can see their hazing situation as a real problem. The civilian Russians in New York I've come across are just as bad toward each other and to other people in general. They are a sadistic bunch that's for sure. In fact, we should let them govern Gitmo, now tht would be an idea. I don't know if the liberals would be for it, but I would. They have this one little game where they hook up battery cables to a guys.... well you get the idea.

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Originally posted by bxpitbull:
Or it could be good ole fear. With the Cold War "heating up" again, the fear of possibly facing battle hardened Americans with superior technology has those ruskies shook. So shook, they are taking their lives in droves. Good riddance to bad rubbish. They have always been the enemy and many of the guys that have served during my time in (88-94)will always see them as the enemy....no matter how many walls fall or what form of democracy they institute. I say let more take their own lives....less our boys will possibly face on the battlefield!

geez, arent you hateful.
Yeah, it sucks to be a young Russian soldier and has since it started going downhill in 1986. Many events internally during this time which also included the war in Afghanistan, led to a huge drop in morale and when combined with paychecks getting unreliable by 1990 and then when seasoned and experienced leaders started leaving in droves after the fall of the USSR, it hasnt been good since. The lack of professionalism in the military has been one of Putin's few failures. Even with more plentiful budget resources, getting new programs and standards in place has often seemed futile. The only bright spot has been in the VVS and rocket forces which (like the USAF) always seem to get the bulk of additional funding and new equipment since 2003.
bxpitbull, its going to be a long time, if ever, before Russian army gets anywhere close to the level of the US.

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Originally posted by pilgrim_23:
Since 1999 the Russian Army has been doing all right over there (that's why you don't hear much about it in the news any more).

Assuming what you say is even true, this is because of the utterly wanton disregard for human life the Russian army displays. They've pulverized entire cities to rubble (oops, I guess we've also done that, to Falluja).

Even the US military's worst excesses look downright humanitarian compared to what Russia has done in Chechnya.

"In the Soviet Army, it takes more courage to retreat than fight"---Joseph Stalin

I'll take some Russians anyday of the week

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Even the US military's worst excesses look downright humanitarian compared to what Russia has done in Chechnya.

It really HAD to be done that way as the Russian army was no longer capable of precision strikes, didnt know anything of conducting successful urban warfare and the leadership got ticked pretty quick in the first days when they found out how easily the "mighty" Russian soldier could be pecked off one by one, 30 or 40 a day by 1 sniper.

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"In the Soviet Army, it takes more courage to retreat than fight"---Joseph Stalin

how true it was. fight and you might live to see another day, retreat and you will surely die being shot by your commander that very moment you retreat.

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Originally posted by Aco275RGR:
"In the Soviet Army, it takes more courage to retreat than fight"---Joseph Stalin

I'll take some Russians anyday of the week

I'm not Army so maybe you can help me since you are 2nd Ranger Bat. When exactly was the 2nd in Afghanistan? I was under the impression that the 2nd was primarily in Iraq.

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Originally posted by FlankerFlyer:

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Even the US military's worst excesses look downright humanitarian compared to what Russia has done in Chechnya.

It really HAD to be done that way as the Russian army was no longer capable of precision strikes, didnt know anything of conducting successful urban warfare and the leadership got ticked pretty quick in the first days when they found out how easily the "mighty" Russian soldier could be pecked off one by one, 30 or 40 a day by 1 sniper.

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"In the Soviet Army, it takes more courage to retreat than fight"---Joseph Stalin

how true it was. fight and you might live to see another day, retreat and you will surely die being shot by your commander that very moment you retreat.

I don't believe in shooting your own men. But, to give three hots and a cot and out in 120 days to someone who says "Hell no, I won't go." That bullet in the old brainbox is a little tempting when other men and women are coming home in a box after doing their duty.

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I'm not Army so maybe you can help me since you are 2nd Ranger Bat. When exactly was the 2nd in Afghanistan? I was under the impression that the 2nd was primarily in Iraq.

Well all I can say HERE is that all three battalions go in and out of all kinds of places in both theaters....Maybe a company from this battalion will go here, the rest of the battalion there....I loved the Afghan deployment, The mountains are breath taking, simply breath taking

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how true it was. fight and you might live to see another day, retreat and you will surely die being shot by your commander that very moment you retreat.

That is probably my favorite Military quote, I got a big grin when I read it I served with a Russian, spoke it fluently. His family was orthodox Christians, and he followed his religion i'll tell ya. I have never respected a person more than this guy. He was a physical animal, but the most humble and soft spoken guy too. He never cursed, never drank, never did anything morally questionable but he was still cool to hang out with, he wasn't your typical religious weirdo Americans are.....After 3 years though, he finally said "****"....LOL, My head snapped when I heard him.....His Father was in the Russian Spetsnaz and fought in Afghanistan.

Russians are okay in my book.

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Originally posted by Bladensburg:
Both really, performance wasn't brilliant (It wasn't brilliant, but it got the job done. Many improvements were made and many lessons were learned.) in the second Chechen war by all accounts and it was only overwhelming superiority in terms of kit and numbers (IIRC a force of barely 40 000 was sent in the first round. Not enough to get the job done even if everything was done perfectly and it wasn't.) coupled with an apparent utter disregard for civvie casualties that won it(That was a nature of the conflict. Chechens are a tough breed and proved themselves very hard to be put down *even in the old times*. While civilian casualties are regretful they do happen in all wars. I refuse to believe that in the case of Chechnya that was done intentionally.). Russian casualties were pretty high, even by official accounts, given their relative superiority. I will agree that the Russian leadership has been somewhat more robust although I do wonder whether it was really worth it given the the destruction wrought and loss of life makes Iraq look like a model of humane intervention(Again, if we fought Chechens in Iraq the casualties and the loss of life would be just the same as in the case of Russians.).

There have been a couple of books by ex Russian soldiers published in the UK recently that paint a less than flattering picture of the Russian Army in Chechnya 1999-2001 and both allege that the climate of fear within Russian units contributed both to their own poor performance and to the high incidence of what in Western armies would probably be classed as war crimes.(From what I heard I can tell you that many things have improved since that time. In the second round all troops that were sent there had at least six months of training and all units were fully manned/as opposed to the first round when a lot of soldiers had a month of training and the unit strenght was at fifty of thirty percent at best.)

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Originally posted by 5170553:Assuming what you say is even true, this is because of the utterly wanton disregard for human life the Russian army displays. They've pulverized entire cities to rubble (oops, I guess we've also done that, to Falluja).(When was the last time we fought enemy that good (as Chechens)? Hue City didn't look much better when we took it.)

Even the US military's worst excesses look downright humanitarian compared to what Russia has done in Chechnya.(Chechens are a lot tougher in a face-to-face fight than the Iraqis.)

bxpitbull - You ignorant ****.

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Originally posted by Aco275RGR:
That is probably my favorite Military quote, I got a big grin when I read it I served with a Russian, spoke it fluently. His family was orthodox Christians, and he followed his religion i'll tell ya. I have never respected a person more than this guy. He was a physical animal, but the most humble and soft spoken guy too. He never cursed, never drank, never did anything morally questionable but he was still cool to hang out with, he wasn't your typical religious weirdo Americans are.....After 3 years though, he finally said "****"....LOL, My head snapped when I heard him.....His Father was in the Russian Spetsnaz and fought in Afghanistan.

Russians are okay in my book.

Good stuff.
That's how most of us are (I'm of Russian descent and that could've been a description of myself).

Anyone know from which country the human rights group is?

Pilgrim (and Flanker) I would contend that if you cannot manage an operation without virtually depopulating the place then you shouldn't try. Not having the right forces or training is no excuse really, is it?

And I also wish I could be as sanguine as you Pilgrim on whether the enormous civvie casualties were accidental, deliberate or merely the result of callous disregard for Chechen lives. I recall that there were a number of acquittals of Russian soldiers (including a colonel IIRC) on war-crime charges because the victims were "only" Chechen.

quote:

Originally posted by Bladensburg:
Pilgrim (and Flanker) I would contend that if you cannot manage an operation without virtually depopulating the place then you shouldn't try. Not having the right forces or training is no excuse really, is it?

And I also wish I could be as sanguine as you Pilgrim on whether the enormous civvie casualties were accidental, deliberate or merely the result of callous disregard for Chechen lives. I recall that there were a number of acquittals of Russian soldiers (including a colonel IIRC) on war-crime charges because the victims were "only" Chechen.

That is not true. There were quite a few show trials for war crimes, and those officers are still in prison. The political, and yes, that was mainly political peace that Putin acheived with Chechnya came at a price for Russia. I am not going to speculate if those guys really commited crimes or not, I was not there, neither I'd have any desire to clean up theat horrendous mess. However, I would never hold Putin responisble for Chechen war. That happened on Elcin watch. That SOB, may he burn in hell where he belongs, is responisble for deaths of thousands of Russian and Chechen civilians, and thousands of Russian 18 year old boys, fresh out of boot camp, sent to that slaughter called Chechnya against trained and experienced fighters from all over free Islamic fighting world. Putin inherited that mess, and weather you like it or not, he cleaned it up with what he had. He stopped sending 18 year old draftees in and send contractors in, that actually knew what they were doing, and they concentrating on getting the job done, and establishing peace. And it has been successful.

FF is absolutely right, a lot of troubles in Russian military are stemming from 1990s, and unstability of pay is actually put nicely, governement employees at the time were not getting paid for months at a time. What was especially bad for comissioned officers, they were also not allowed to resign their commission. The suicidal rate among even officers at that time was astronomical, I wonder why noone ever mentioned that. Underfunding, betrayal of the military by the politicians, I am surprised that anyone still chooses to serve in Russia at all. Y'all are bringing alcoholism and some sadistic fearures of Russian character, and ignoring the elephant here, finances. Military has to be financed, and Russian army has not seen that in decades. Officers still don't get paid worse crap, and any some what stable Russian family does not send their children into service. My brother has served in late 1980's, early 90s. He was the last of my family to serve. Things were getting bad already, but they got plain horrible by the late 1990s. Service in the military used to be a matter of pride and honor in Russia. Not anymore.

Oh, and also, as far as disregard for Chechen lives and plain murder of Chechen civilians, google stats on Chechnya. Demographically, Chechnya is one of the fastest growing republics in Russia. If Russians did conduct genocide in Chechnya, like you accuse them, they suck at it. Kinda like Serbs did in Kosovo.