RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,162582,00.html

Why would we have flags and other secular representations in the chapel in the first place? It's like the Black History thing that military chapels do each year (which I stay away from) instead of preaching the Word.

Jim
LTC USAR Ret.

What do Flags in Church have to do with Black History??
Every Church here in this area & every Church I've ever visited, has at least one US Flag displayed (& displayed properly). The issue here was the dipping of the US Flag. I agree with dipping it (in this circumstance) but know many here will not. The Pledge says "One Nation, Under God". Dipping the US Flag to show respect & submission to His authority is fine with me, but I'm sure there are plenty of others who will disagree. That's one of the reasons this Nation is the greatest in the World. The Right to disagree. We don't have a perfect Nation, nor a perfect Judicial, Executive or Legislative branch. But, there is none better. That's just my .03 cents this morning.
OF THE TROOPS AND FOR THE TROOPS!

There is nothing wrong with a christian-American honoring God;
for giving him a free country in which to
live.

In honoring those that "gave all", in the
past, for the freedoms we express today

In thanking the Lord we believe for
those flags we hold as dear symbols.

In no articles have I ever read that the Religious services are MANDATORY for all cadets. PLEASE let those that who choose not to believe, SHUT UP for thier own sake!!!!

An Admiral with that much hate for the American flag will probably end up on the Obama/Clinton administrative team.

I cannot totaly agree with the LTC's post. Each military unit has long standing customs which have become part of military life, some which are shared throughout the service and others which might be unique only to the unit.
These customs can become an important part of the unit's very essence and esteem.

ALL
In every USN chapel I have ever attended, there is a US Flag, A chapel flag, and occassionaly a State flag. I can say I have never seen the US flag dipped during opening ceremonies. I personally take no offense in the act of lowering the US flag as a mark of respect.
The politics here can be endless.
end

What ever happened to "Carry out the order and discuss it later". To merely not attend the service, says nothing about his orders not being carried out. And they are training our Naval officers here. Good Luck!!!!

How do liberals even get in positions of say? It amazes me and pisses me off at the outright attempt by these sick thinking humans to re-org everything to their fashion. They do not support or believe in our Military and what it is for, and does, yet they are more than happy to take that pay check and retire. Liberalism is a sickness that was propogated from the 60's and has been nurtured by all the so called professors over the years. I hope that fuller crawls around for the rest of the time he is going to hang around the campus.
I work for SPAWAR Sytems Center in Point Loma,Ca, I see the same thing there. I take every opportunity to make sure certain humans there know they are being paid with blood money.
God Bless America and OUR Acadamy. I could really get nasty about this, but enough for now.

Lets be sure we look at the whole picture:
If I read things he (the C.O) gave a comment, that if the flag was to be dipped, he wouldn't return. He is fulfilling his statement. He is chosing wisely to allow his subordinates to worship (which is a right we defend daily) in a manner in which they desire.

Calling this naval officer a liberal or anything else with out knowing him is not in propper edicate either. He has a differing opinion then I do, but I'm willing to lay my life down to give him the right to disagree with me.

Should the flags be allowed: YES it is part of our right to practice our faith
Should he attend? If he so inclines so long as he doesn't interupt the free practice of same...

Was his order a lawful order, I'm not JAG, but I don't feel it was, but that would be decided at a higer level then myself and until such a time as a thta decision was made, it does niether side any good to get into name calling or labeling.

Finally, as a Christian, the FRC or any other para church organization doesn't speak for all who call on the name of Christ. Remember the only folks Christ ever got upset with were the Religious, to the lost, he was comforer and friend; and when they saw the truth, they like us were set free.

What I find funny about this whole ridiculous article is the ability for fools to bring politics and the so called assumption that one is liberal or conservative. For myself, I have never seen a flag of any type walked down the center isle of any church service on a military base. They say it's a naval Academy tradition then so be it... Let it stay. However, to go off on the tangents that folk went to in this article, speaks of trivolity, and ignorance.

The founding fathers did not intend for the US flag to be dipped to an alter. It flies in the face of the uniquely American concept of separation of church and state. Next we will dipping the flag to whatever passes for a Muslim alter, or a Hindu alter, or a Buddist alter, it goes on forever. For you right wing ultra conserative religious fanatic theocrats (especially the Christian counterparts to the Islamists)- go convert someone in Saudi Arabia. You will have fun, and you will see what happens when the state and religion are not separated. Navy - what were you thinking 40 years ago? No one dips a US flag at the senior service academy at West Point! Render unto Caesar.

I hope you all understand my meaning at the end of this post. If there is a separation of church and state, where did the admiral get his authority to remove the flag from the chapel. What were the real reasons for banning the Ritual? IN my opinion this nothing more than a non believer imposing his will on others by using his Military rank to do so. I don't care what the reasoning was or is, I think the admiral should be relieved of command and sent to DIEGO GARCIA. I say the last duty station with tongue in cheek. Then again. I could be wrong.

The U.S. flag should never be dipped for any reason whatsoever!! Who ever started dipping the U.S. flag should have been court martialed and given a BCD or what ever the officers equivilant is called.

Separation of Church and State, what our founding fathers wanted... BTW, I am not a liberal…our founding fathers would not agree with dipping the flag.

Our Flag is not to be tipped period…tipping is a sign of acknowledging titled hierarchy. Something our founding fathers fought for 8 years to free us from ever having to do again.

The original pledge…since someone brought it up did not have “one nation under god”…

Click on thumbnails to enlarge…

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Smkngun,

"Jack Yoest, a management training consultant who with his wife, Charmaine, publishes Reasoned Audacity, said in his Feb. 20 blog that Fowler "is clearly confused on the hierarchy between the state and the church. It would appear that he, like most Godless liberals, fear the dominance of the Creator."
He said Fowler and other liberals shouldn't be afraid, however, because Christians are commanded to obey every law of the state "save one." If it means breaking the law to, as he put it, "share the Good News," he said Christians are bound to take that course of action."
i seem to remember from history class and the classes in the US Constitution that one of the founding foundations for this country was the seperation of church and state - and during a certain Olympic opening ceremony about 100 years ago the US flag bearer refused to do as other countries had done, that was dipping their countries flag, supposedly, out of respect for that country - the reply he gave was that, "the US flag dips to or for no one!"
seems to me that in both instances everyone involved was deeply religious.
but then, is this nothing more than a "tempest in a teapot???" or what??

OFANDFORTHETROOPS states: "The Pledge says "One Nation, Under God" True enough. But that was added in the early 50's about the time of the McCarthy witchhunts. It was not always there. Furthermore, for another change, I believe in the early 20's instead of hand over heart it was right arm fully extended.

More history -- I was always taught that the American flag is never dipped. The example was the 1938 Olympics in Nazi Germany. I always thought that was a good way to go.

Observation: There is a difference in having a flag in the chapel vs having the flag participate in the service. In the chapel it seems to me to represent that freedom of religion is protected by the state...the USA. Participating in the service states something else...and suggests that the state and the religion are one, as in IRAN, SAUDI ARABIA, et al. If anyone thinks that this is good, consider the people murdered in the name of Christ. I do not wish to enourage that and have it spread. If you think I am a little off...well you have not had your kids harassed in school for not being Christian.

My question is, why do these fundamentalist Christian have to shove their faith in my face versus living it as Christ told them to. Spreading the word is not to be done like Nazi propaganda.

Isn't this the Navy we are talking about? Shouldn't they have the rainbow flag?? LOL. Just Kidding. My family have all served in the Navy and I respect all branches. I just can't miss an opportunity to get a shot in.
So many people forget that this country was founded by Christians who wanted to practice Christianity without interference from the king; there were other reasons, but this one is one the liberals try to bury.

quote:

... but then, is this nothing more than a "tempest in a teapot???" or what??

LOL ... this, like the source of several other recent articles, is nothing more than Mikey Weinsteing attempting to amass one hundred farts and call it wind ... no matter how it is packaged, it smells.

I find this really interesting.

"While Morrison and others may view the return of the flags as a victory, the head of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation calls Fowler’s willingness to let the flags back in "cowardly."

"Admiral Fowler is dual-hatted as the most senior commander and [the] university president, and he's simply going to boycott chapel services now that his order to stop violating the constitution has been refused?" said Mikey Weinstein."


I'm afraid I really have to disagree with this clown. The last time read the constitution it guarantees religious freedom to worship WITHOUT government interference. Therefore it does not matter if these services take place on a ship, a base or an Academy. These services are protected by the constitution and these people are allowed to worship according to the worshipers own beliefs and set of doctrine and rituals, without interference of the commanding officer, or the so called "Military Religious Freedom Foundation" To interfere in anyway is denying these people the freedom to worship the way they wish to worship. It doesn't matter what religion it is or what denomination it is, as long that it is a religion recognized by the government and military, it has the right to worship the way it chooses to worship without interference from the commanding officer or little "Mikey" and his group of clowns. I wonder who is really wearing the double hat here and trying to deny religious freedoms here --- Mikey? Perhaps a look in the mirror may reveal not only two hats but two faces sprouting bullshit --- looking back!

Aren't those that wish to worship their creator the way they wish to worship Him really the ones being the ones denied their constitutional rights to do so? I can only believe the "Military Religious Freedom Foundation" only protects religious freedoms selectively according to their own misguided agenda, while denying others the right to worship freely without interference.

I want to ask a basic questions of the advocates for this practice: would it be equally acceptable to you for the American and Brigade of Midshipman flags to be dipped to some form of alter at a Muslim religous service?