RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,160066,00.html

Who is digging up the dirt this time! I just can not imagine a convoy of US Military people traveling along a 10 mile stretch of road and just start popping caps for no apparent reason, killing and injuring dozens of locals along the way. It just does not happen. Of course I was not there but based on my own experiences, I just can not for one second think this actually happened the way it has been reported. And that's all I have to say about that.

Let the Marines do their JOB! If I were fired upon,I would fire back. that is what we are taught. I wish media would drop stupid stuff and focus on what good is coming out of this region.

The media only reports so called"news" when it looks like it will raise a stink and make the troops and the American efforts look bad. This is Propaganda. It is doing just what it did back in Nam. The media is trying to turn piblic opinion away from the current Administration to prove to themselves and our Enimies that they can. They believe that this gives them the ability to move to the front lines in relative saftey from being captured/killed/tortured, while reporting their version of the war to aid the enimies. Plain and simple.

quote:

Originally posted by Schistosome:
Let the Marines do their JOB! If I were fired upon,I would fire back. that is what we are taught. I wish media would drop stupid stuff and focus on what good is coming out of this region.

If you can fire back, who you can shoot at and how careful you have to be about ID'ing targets is covered in the ROEs. If the unit followed the ROE leave them alone if they didn't then clobber the leadership.

According to a member of the unit the convoy kept firing for over 1.5 miles after being shot at twice which at least makes it seem as if they did not follow the ROE and if the Navy investigator is correct and they kept firing for 10 miles then the possibility they did not follow the ROE is VERY high. Remember this is a counter-insurgency operation not an assault or all out combat and civilian casualities help the insurgents, cause more problems for the US and cause more US casualities in the long run

quote:

A Marine riding in the convoy testified last week that the convoy was shot at twice and Marines fired back over a span of roadway about 1.5 miles (2.4 kilometers) long. Navy investigators said the firing occurred over about six miles (10 kilometers), O'Dwyer said.

The Navy wouldn't determine real cause if an IED exploded in their section of the Pentagon. Odds are that a disgruntled seaman be held responsible. After all, patronizing the media and Congress is far more important than objective assessments of the realities and consequences of warfighting.

Having been in many battle areas, if anyone goes back a couple months later, you couldn't really tell what happened. Even with a week of investigations. To be honest, there is always some D*mn liberal human rights advocate, who has never been shot at, with good media connections who always tell about the A$$holes of the USA. These are truly enemies of our country, they don't support any of the LIVES of a US servicemember, but can only see us as an invading forces, killing everyone just because we are there. Forgetting, it's the American Military that protects their FREEDOM to voice there criticisms. Any other country who have already eliminated the source, by silencing their voices. I've had 5-6 year old children with grenades strapped to their chest, shot them or watch your comrades die. Then you are accused of being a baby killer. Makes little difference right or wrong, but it not sell newspapers.

This situation strikes me as very different from Haditha in that both the CG and the Commandant came in strongly in favor of supporting the Marine's account, so there must be more to it than meets the eye. Earlier on I was inclined to wonder about it, particularly since the Marine Special Ops group was taken out of country, but given that I am inclined to wait for the full inquiry to finish.

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Originally posted by rayld2:

quote:

Originally posted by Schistosome:
Let the Marines do their JOB! If I were fired upon,I would fire back. that is what we are taught. I wish media would drop stupid stuff and focus on what good is coming out of this region.

If you can fire back, who you can shoot at and how careful you have to be about ID'ing targets is covered in the ROEs. If the unit followed the ROE leave them alone if they didn't then clobber the leadership.

According to a member of the unit the convoy kept firing for over 1.5 miles after being shot at twice which at least makes it seem as if they did not follow the ROE and if the Navy investigator is correct and they kept firing for 10 miles then the possibility they did not follow the ROE is VERY high. Remember this is a counter-insurgency operation not an assault or all out combat and civilian casualities help the insurgents, cause more problems for the US and cause more US casualities in the long run

quote:

A Marine riding in the convoy testified last week that the convoy was shot at twice and Marines fired back over a span of roadway about 1.5 miles (2.4 kilometers) long. Navy investigators said the firing occurred over about six miles (10 kilometers), O'Dwyer said.

Covering 1.5 miles is relative to the speed of the convoy at the time of engagment.. Its easy to throw stones when you've never had the pleasure of being in that kind of situation.

Hmmm... a 2 month delay between the incident and the investigation and drawing a CREDIBLE conclusion from that doesnt seem possible, it would be easier for me to believe if the investigation had be conducted maybe two weeks after the incident but not 2 months.
Im more inclined to believe the people that were actually present during the incident than the investigators drawing their speculations and what not, No Proof of ANYTHING is what the investigators have

Afghanistan Human Rights Organization...
now THERE is a reliable source of witnesses...

quote:

Originally posted by Schistosome:
Let the Marines do their JOB! If I were fired upon,I would fire back. that is what we are taught. I wish media would drop stupid stuff and focus on what good is coming out of this region.

Where you taught to stop shooting, or did that happen naturally when you had no ammo left. Fire discipline not a Marine concept?

What good is coming out of this region? There could be another protracted ambush like this one anytime. Maybe there'd even be more civilians shot, or gad forbid, a Marine.

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Originally posted by TheTinker:
Afghanistan Human Rights Organization...
now THERE is a reliable source of witnesses...

Shows to go ya how objectivity depends on which side of the muzzle you're on.

quote:

Originally posted by popsiq:

quote:

Originally posted by Schistosome:
Let the Marines do their JOB! If I were fired upon,I would fire back. that is what we are taught. I wish media would drop stupid stuff and focus on what good is coming out of this region.

Where you taught to stop shooting, or did that happen naturally when you had no ammo left. Fire discipline not a Marine concept?

What good is coming out of this region? There could be another protracted ambush like this one anytime. Maybe there'd even be more civilians shot, or gad forbid, a Marine.

Honestly what would you know about fire discpline let alone what being a marine is all about?

quote:

Originally posted by Schistosome:
Let the Marines do their JOB! If I were fired upon,I would fire back. that is what we are taught. I wish media would drop stupid stuff and focus on what good is coming out of this region.

I have been shot at more than once and not fired back, because there was no target. There is no excuse for indisciminately firing up an area and on top of that happening to killing or wound civilians! Something happened and it definately wasnt right. These Marines are special operators and they shoot without a target? Sounds more like the actions of a Marine rifle platoon. No excuse. These Marines should have known better. They should recieve article 15s and sent back to a line unit.

quote:

Originally posted by popsiq:

quote:

Originally posted by TheTinker:
Afghanistan Human Rights Organization...
now THERE is a reliable source of witnesses...

Shows to go ya how objectivity depends on which side of the muzzle you're on.

goes to show your total lack of knowledge on the situation...go back to taking care of deserters...

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Originally posted by al_Mulazem:

quote:

Originally posted by Schistosome:
Let the Marines do their JOB! If I were fired upon,I would fire back. that is what we are taught. I wish media would drop stupid stuff and focus on what good is coming out of this region.

I have been shot at more than once and not fired back, because there was no target. There is no excuse for indisciminately firing up an area and on top of that happening to killing or wound civilians! Something happened and it definately wasnt right. These Marines are special operators and they shoot without a target? Sounds more like the actions of a Marine rifle platoon. No excuse. These Marines should have known better. They should recieve article 15s and sent back to a line unit.

No proof of anyone being killed. Afghanis claim all were buried and will not allow exhumation. The body count figures come from those who came forward to claim solatia payments. All convoy participants that have testified so far (except one) say they heard small arms fire overhead and Sgt Henderson's vehicle commander says he used controlled fire. All claim this was a complex ambush. These Marines are well-trained; all have combat experience; several have been seriously wounded during deployments to Iraq. I believe the Marines did what they were trained to do.

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Originally posted by Kegler300:

quote:

Originally posted by al_Mulazem:

quote:

Originally posted by Schistosome:
Let the Marines do their JOB! If I were fired upon,I would fire back. that is what we are taught. I wish media would drop stupid stuff and focus on what good is coming out of this region.

I have been shot at more than once and not fired back, because there was no target. There is no excuse for indisciminately firing up an area and on top of that happening to killing or wound civilians! Something happened and it definately wasnt right. These Marines are special operators and they shoot without a target? Sounds more like the actions of a Marine rifle platoon. No excuse. These Marines should have known better. They should recieve article 15s and sent back to a line unit.

No proof of anyone being killed. Afghanis claim all were buried and will not allow exhumation. The body count figures come from those who came forward to claim solatia payments. All convoy participants that have testified so far (except one) say they heard small arms fire overhead and Sgt Henderson's vehicle commander says he used controlled fire. All claim this was a complex ambush. These Marines are well-trained; all have combat experience; several have been seriously wounded during deployments to Iraq. I believe the Marines did what they were trained to do.

Roger. Well its all fishy. I know well enough small units usually don't rat on eachother, and the afghans can not be trusted. so who knows what really happened? Guess just chalk it up to crap happens in war.

"Charging people with murder in war is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500." -Apocalypse Now

It would be naive to think the media would not cover this situation considering it is the military providing the information. So lets forget the media s they are not leading the parade. What is getting out there is exactly what some in the military want publicly divulged.

I'm happy to see the Commandant backing up his men. Don't believe he would do so if he was not in possesion of info that bolsters his support of them.

Our son has done multiple tours in Iraq and is right now serving another tour there. I made it clear to him, do whatever it takes to stay alive. Don't second guess about a threat, by then it's all over. Nobody likes mistakes if one was made. But I agree with a few of the posts here, Marines are disciplined and not some kind of vigallante group just waiting to pop civilians.

We can all hope this situation fades away into obscurity. Best way to resolve this entire situation, get the hell out of both asylums...Iraq and Afghanistan.

S/F Gordon

in my opinion... this is a way the terrorists win is to convince us we are bad, and know that the differing opinions of our even being at war will do more damage than if there were really people killed. Like said, no body count and it ranged from 19 to 50, that is quite a spread. Imagine 50 bodies stacked up, that is a tall pile! I have seen it. Not easily hidden and you know the aftans have cameras and would have photographed the damage if it really occured as reported.