RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,157595,00.html

An assumption that a well managed business depends on a single contract is hubris.

"If the improved security situation in Iraq continues, then they don't need as many of these MRAPs as they thought they did."

This is truly good news, and yet another sign that the efforts of our troops in Iraq are a success.

The silence from the left is deafening.

I believe this was a wise move by the USMC. This war on terrorism is a very fluid engagement and the roles of the services cannot be compromised by a certain AOR. The Corps needs to remain an agile force and although the MRAPs are worth their weight in gold in certain situations they don't make for a mobile force.

By the way I come from a long line of Marines but I had to be different and joined the AF. Semper Fi.

given the popularity due to the effectiveness of the IED/VBIED, this issue will be around well after the Iraq conflict has been relegated to the history books. Having some in reserve might not be that bad an idea, as the turnaround time from the point they are needed until they hit the street costs American lives.

quote:

Originally posted by clarkpaton:
"If the improved security situation in Iraq continues, then they don't need as many of these MRAPs as they thought they did."

This is truly good news, and yet another sign that the efforts of our troops in Iraq are a success.

The silence from the left is deafening.

They don't need even need this many, beacuse MRAPS are not tactical vehicles. They are ordinance/disposal vehicles and to replace every hummer with one at a million a pop is not only wasteful and irresponsible, it's flat out stupid.

And on behalf of "the left" (I am a moderate, but lean left on some issues), all of the tactical success of "THE SURGE (TM)" are being utterly wasted, since the Iraqi govt. has done nothing to solve it's internal issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Grandjester:

quote:

Originally posted by clarkpaton:
"If the improved security situation in Iraq continues, then they don't need as many of these MRAPs as they thought they did."

This is truly good news, and yet another sign that the efforts of our troops in Iraq are a success.

The silence from the left is deafening.

They don't need even need this many, beacuse MRAPS are not tactical vehicles. They are ordinance/disposal vehicles and to replace every hummer with one at a million a pop is not only wasteful and irresponsible, it's flat out stupid.

And on behalf of "the left" (I am a moderate, but lean left on some issues), all of the tactical success of "THE SURGE (TM)" are being utterly wasted, since the Iraqi govt. has done nothing to solve it's internal issues.

Not entirely true. If the surge bought enough time for the Iraqi forces to stand up and exercise control it will have been a success. If the Iraqi army can maintain control the government can dither all it wants, security will have been restored. But never underestimate Iraqi ability to disappoint.

Ya gotta love this new Commandant...rapid reaction force my foot. I doubt the Marine Corps will ever again be used as such a force. In essence, the Marine Corps has become a second Army. If what the Commandant says is true, there would be no Marines in either Iraq or Afghanistan. But due to the low combat numbers available in the Army, they have no choice other than to use the Marine Corps as a land based army. The guy is living in textbook Marine Corps, consequently, I wonder if he should be Commandant. As long as the Army cannot field a suffiently sized ground force, the Marine Coprs will be used to plug the gap.

As for the MRAP itself, I don't care if the Marine Corps only uses them for another few years...as long as they save lives now, screw the cost, the weight and the Commandants vision of the future Marine Corps.

S/F Gordon

quote:

Originally posted by uh34d:
Ya gotta love this new Commandant...rapid reaction force my foot. I doubt the Marine Corps will ever again be used as such a force. In essence, the Marine Corps has become a second Army. If what the Commandant says is true, there would be no Marines in either Iraq or Afghanistan. But due to the low combat numbers available in the Army, they have no choice other than to use the Marine Corps as a land based army. The guy is living in textbook Marine Corps, consequently, I wonder if he should be Commandant. As long as the Army cannot field a suffiently sized ground force, the Marine Coprs will be used to plug the gap.

As for the MRAP itself, I don't care if the Marine Corps only uses them for another few years...as long as they save lives now, screw the cost, the weight and the Commandants vision of the future Marine Corps.

S/F Gordon

Well at least this one is concerned with something more important than the color of our skivvie shirts.

thorin001:

I do not think he is demonstrating any vision at all with his comments. Again, anyone who thinks or believes the Marine Corps will revert back to its classic combat mission is fooling themselves...it will not happen. In fact, we could be seeing the seeds being planted for the demise of the Marine Corps.

Do not think it has gone unnoticed in the halls of Congress the duplicate rolls being played by the Army and Marine Corps since Vietnam. Historically, the Marines went in, conquered territory and it was then handed off to the Army. This process hasn't been utilized since WW 2 (it was used somewhat in Korea).

So, if the Commandant wants to look at the situation purely from a cost perspective, why have a Marine Corps. If the Marines are now doing the same mission as the Army, why be redundant, get rid of the Marine Corps. The force structure of the Marine Corps was never intended to be a fight, hold and rebuild an AO but that is exactly what they have done and are doing since Vietnam. But DOD has no other choice because they know the Army is too small to fulfill its intended role in war. And adding 80,000 or so new Army troops will not rectify the situation. I believe total Army strength is somewhere around 550,000, nowhere near the number needed to fight wars like we now have in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So, the Commandants picture of the future does not bode well for the Marine Corps. And by the way, read the recent story here on military.com on the change in uniform for the Marine Corps evening dress uniform for staff NCO's if you want to discuss trivial matters. Who cares if they continue to wear a tie or change to a high collar? With everything going on, who would have the time to think up these things? One would think there were more important things to attend to.

S/F Gordon
_______________________________________________


Posted Wed 05 December 2007 08:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by uh34d:
Ya gotta love this new Commandant...rapid reaction force my foot. I doubt the Marine Corps will ever again be used as such a force. In essence, the Marine Corps has become a second Army. If what the Commandant says is true, there would be no Marines in either Iraq or Afghanistan. But due to the low combat numbers available in the Army, they have no choice other than to use the Marine Corps as a land based army. The guy is living in textbook Marine Corps, consequently, I wonder if he should be Commandant. As long as the Army cannot field a suffiently sized ground force, the Marine Coprs will be used to plug the gap.

As for the MRAP itself, I don't care if the Marine Corps only uses them for another few years...as long as they save lives now, screw the cost, the weight and the Commandants vision of the future Marine Corps.

S/F Gordon


Well at least this one is concerned with something more important than the color of our skivvie shirts.

1.) Ask any experienced wrench in the Army or the Marines and they'll tell you that the HMV is probably the WORST designed military vehicle of all time from a routine maintenance standpoint.
2.) The original design was prepared for stateside duty NOTfor the rigors and demands of combat.
3.) Re-read the first two points and then ask how this vehicle was ever approved in the first place.
4.) THEREFORE > the millions spent making and maintaining
the HMV and then upgrading its armor to survive small arms and IEDs is another exercise in futility since they are
all going to be replaced eventually.
5.) Had the R & D procurement and testing people actually
talked to ground pounders BEFORE the original HMV contracts were signed, we would not have been stuck with those lemons in the 1st place and we are now paying the price in unnecessary deaths & injuries due to their stupidity & greed.

Roger that. It all boils down to what the contractors can sell to the Generals and Admirals.
How much crap has the military, as a whole, been forced into using just to satisfy some politically connected supplier.
Let's make a list:

If any of you are waiting at home for news of your soldier stationed in Iraq and Afganistan, you would pray for the MRAP to be sent there as quickly as possible...my son is a gunner in a Humvee that is not much protection for the troops, I am sick that that our government can withhold the funds so desperately needed to equip our military forces with safer vehicles, the ieds and roadside bombs may have slowed down but this is just a lull to make us more complacent, my son has ll more months to go on his 15 month tour, get that money to the military and get those MRAP vehicles on the way... ARMY MOM

11397182:

The money has already been allocated for the MRAPS, so the money is there to pay for them.

The question at hand, some in the military, the Commandant of the Marine Corps being one want to divert some of that money to other projects and uses. Congress is saying no. So one has to wonder, who are the people truly concerned about our troops?

Just a few links below on the subject.

http://www.defenselink.mil/home/features/2007/mrap/

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2007/02/200...ort_on_mrap_fund.asp

http://www.thebulletin.org/columns/gordon-adams/20070305.html

S/F Gordon
_______________________________________________
Posted Wed 05 December 2007 09:52 AM
If any of you are waiting at home for news of your soldier stationed in Iraq and Afganistan, you would pray for the MRAP to be sent there as quickly as possible...my son is a gunner in a Humvee that is not much protection for the troops, I am sick that that our government can withhold the funds so desperately needed to equip our military forces with safer vehicles, the ieds and roadside bombs may have slowed down but this is just a lull to make us more complacent, my son has ll more months to go on his 15 month tour, get that money to the military and get those MRAP vehicles on the way... ARMY MOM

quote:

Originally posted by clarkpaton:
"If the improved security situation in Iraq continues, then they don't need as many of these MRAPs as they thought they did."

This is truly good news, and yet another sign that the efforts of our troops in Iraq are a success.

The silence from the left is deafening.

I assumed that the reduction was because the Marine's expect to be moved to Afganistan, but with the increase in violence and IED's there that may not be the reason.

quote:

Originally posted by 11397182:
If any of you are waiting at home for news of your soldier stationed in Iraq and Afganistan, you would pray for the MRAP to be sent there as quickly as possible...my son is a gunner in a Humvee that is not much protection for the troops, I am sick that that our government can withhold the funds so desperately needed to equip our military forces with safer vehicles, the ieds and roadside bombs may have slowed down but this is just a lull to make us more complacent, my son has ll more months to go on his 15 month tour, get that money to the military and get those MRAP vehicles on the way... ARMY MOM

Good on your son for doing his duty. I think you're missing the point of at least some of us are trying to make on this issue. The USMCs mission is way different than that of the Army. If it is to continue to fulfill its role as an agile, amphibious/air mobile force then the MRAP is not the best vehicle to foist upon them. In a perfect world every soldier would be encased in a bullet/IED/flame/splinter/chemical/nuke proof cocoon but that's not practical or common sense. Also, the bigger and heavier these things are the more impractical they become. If all they can do is drive on certain roads and avoid certain bridges then their efficacy is reduced. Once again, good on your son and I sincerely hope that he gets through his deployment safely...as I hope my wife does.

IF THEY SAVEC LIVES THAN I SAY BUY THEM,CURTIS REAVES,JACKSONVILLE N.C.

rayld2:

The lull in Iraq is just temporary. Sooner or later, the Sunni and Shiia will go at it. The Sunni opposition has disappeared simply as a matter of survival so they can fight at a later date. 80% of the casualties (fighters & civilian) have been Sunni. The Sunni realized they had to stem the loss, they realized they could never defeat American forces. So now, we welcome the Sunni with open arms who just a few short months ago were killing and maiming American's. We are now training, equiping and paying the new Sunni vanguard.

Our son is again in Iraq, a seven man anti-terrorist unit attached to an Iraqi army unit. Without going into detail, he clearly indicates the current situation is a tactical decision by the Sunni's. I even spoke with two of the Iraqi troops in his unit and one of them was very blunt; they will not surrender to the Shiia. They both spoke English well.

I see the situation like this. The Sunni are regrouping. They will maintain this lull with the belief it will lead to a drastic reduction in US combat forces in Iraq. Our withdrawals will be based upon the reduction in attacks. We will claim some type of success and will no longer see the need to maintain substantial combat forces within Iraq. When the number of our combat troops is sufficiently reduced, the Sunni will act. It may not happen until the end of 2008 and maybe going into 2009, they are patient people. But make no mistake, Malaki and his Shiia cohorts will not compromise with the Sunni, the Sunni realize this and feel their only hope will be to again dominate Iraq. The time will come when the Sunni will react, we will be caught in the middle and will not be able to do a damned thing.

S/F Gordon
_______________________________________________
Posted Wed 05 December 2007 10:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by clarkpaton:
"If the improved security situation in Iraq continues, then they don't need as many of these MRAPs as they thought they did."

This is truly good news, and yet another sign that the efforts of our troops in Iraq are a success.

The silence from the left is deafening.


I assumed that the reduction was because the Marine's expect to be moved to Afganistan, but with the increase in violence and IED's there that may not be the reason.

Was someone talking about "HMV" meaning THE Hummer, HMMV. The HMMV was not intended for town patrol in urban warfare. It was an upsized jeep with more stability and load bearing. The ability to carry a fire team, with survival gear (cold,chem, etc) and personal weapons + ammo and a pedestal mounted MG for enroute protection was its design goal. It was never and still is not a decent fighting veh in urban warfare. Dismounted infantry fight urban fights (unless you Nuke the town first.) There is still a need for a fire team carrier, just not in town patrol's in hostile towns.

quote:

Originally posted by Grandjester:

quote:

Originally posted by clarkpaton:
"If the improved security situation in Iraq continues, then they don't need as many of these MRAPs as they thought they did."

This is truly good news, and yet another sign that the efforts of our troops in Iraq are a success.

The silence from the left is deafening.

They don't need even need this many, beacuse MRAPS are not tactical vehicles. They are ordinance/disposal vehicles and to replace every hummer with one at a million a pop is not only wasteful and irresponsible, it's flat out stupid.

And on behalf of "the left" (I am a moderate, but lean left on some issues), all of the tactical success of "THE SURGE (TM)" are being utterly wasted, since the Iraqi govt. has done nothing to solve it's internal issues.

Lean left on some issues? You gotta be kiddin"
right, or should I say left?!...
LOL Respectfully, SUNLINER81

quote:

Originally posted by uh34d:
Ya gotta love this new Commandant...rapid reaction force my foot. I doubt the Marine Corps will ever again be used as such a force. In essence, the Marine Corps has become a second Army. If what the Commandant says is true, there would be no Marines in either Iraq or Afghanistan. But due to the low combat numbers available in the Army, they have no choice other than to use the Marine Corps as a land based army. The guy is living in textbook Marine Corps, consequently, I wonder if he should be Commandant. As long as the Army cannot field a suffiently sized ground force, the Marine Coprs will be used to plug the gap.

As for the MRAP itself, I don't care if the Marine Corps only uses them for another few years...as long as they save lives now, screw the cost, the weight and the Commandants vision of the future Marine Corps.

S/F Gordon

Right on!
We are in a war and if works, it works, get the men what they need when they need it and have a sufficient number in reserve to support combat loss or even to use for parts...
Respectfully, SUNLINER81