RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,155799,00.html

RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,155799,00.html

Sounds like he's wired a little too tight. If he assulted the recruits then he should be punished. Waterbowling sounds over the top too. (Although we had to eat some nasty chow in boot camp that made you want to vomit) Cruelty? What kind of charge is that in boot camp? I mean every Company Commander (Navy DI) in boot camp I ran across was cruel to the bone

As to damaging razor kits and alike, I had a CC who used to empty our lockers and throw everything against the floor, stuff got damaged, big deal.

While outright assult should never be tolerated, but they're in boot camp not summer camp.

They're in boot camp not summer camp, exactly! Guys going into the Maries know what they are getting into when they sign up. Anything to get these guys prepared for war should be done. (Take a look at what happeneds to our guys once captured). I am sure this was a knock on the head with the flash light not a full swing. Big deal. It’s all about discipline. Forget your combo now, what are you going to do in combat, forget your ammo? These guys are in training. Sounds a bit like someone is now having second thoughts about signing up. Except they fact that many of your “Rights” are on “hold” while in the service.

So,

Are we saying that all the honest, hard-working NCOs who aren't accused of abuse are not doing their jobs as effectively as possible? Are we going to say that if you're not abusive then your troops won't be tough enough?

If that's true, then let's remove all those who are not abusive enough for incompetence.

Be reasonable about this folks. I know and many of you know that "back in the day" we got kicked around alot more than is permitted today, both Army and Marine Corps Drill Sergeants had much more play than they do now, but does that mean it's required to effectively train recruits? I doubt it.

There are plenty of decent, hard-working, tough, ethical E-6s and E-7s out there on the Depot and on Army posts all over the country who turn out tough, well-trained troops every cycle without being accused of abuse.

If there's something wrong here...it should be fixed, not dismissed as whining from a bunch of cry-babies. Good NCOs are worth their weight in gold...bad NCOs (there ARE some bad NCOS and officers) should be sent to barber college.

There are always 3 sides to every story; the trainees, the DI's and the truth somewhere in between. Having said that, sometimes DI's/DS's allow the hat to go to their head and abuse the power they are given. At the same time, 95% of all DI's and DS's are doing the right thing and are following policy, rules and regulations. The only thing I have issue with is having Marine Recruits lie in their own vomit. I ask myself and I ask any DI/DS; does that constitute training the Marine, or, it's just part of the training? I don't think as a professional held to the highest standard {and any DI or DS knows you are held to a different standard} that making a recruit lie in his or her own vomit has anything to do with training. If the DI did it, he was not focusing on "training", he lost focus of what his job as a DI is. He is still inicent until proven guilty but, he was relieved and that is the quandry and the micrscope you are under 24/7/365 as a DI/DS. It comes with the territory. The good ones know boundries, the ones that get "caught up" cross those boundries.

Ok, It's called pushing forward while training in your own vomit-Your vomit represents your buddies blood and guts(and your weakness) in your fox hole that just got hit by a gernade or mortor and you lived through it to press forward and supress the enemy.-Get it??
Hey guys,It been sixteen long years since I've been out of the beautifull Corps and I understand what my DI's were doing way back then-what camp did you go to?
Quit being Puss bags and let this DI get off with a hand slap-I dont want a bunch of wimps by my side in battle!
Added message..... It must Be a MARINE thing to understand what Marine Corps boot camp is all about. The rest with due respect..Step aside.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: PLATOON3018,

We are the Few and the Proud. Boot camp is not meant to be easy. The boot camp of today is not the same as years ago. Glass was just trying to prepare those young men to be Marines. Few could make it through boot camp without abuse. One of the abuses may have been because he couldn't get a footlocker open but there isn't always time, and when you are under presure easy things become much harder. We are fighting a war now. Not all of us agree that we should be there but our troops are there and need to be prepared. POW's are not kept at the Hilton. There is torture weather we like it or not. If you can bear a little abuse in boot camp maybe in war they won't give your information away. What does not kill you makes you stronger. This I have learned. Semper Fi.

Poor babies! Perhaps the Corps should replace DIs with chaplains. Or better yet, the ACLU and/or other anti-war freaks. The chaplains, in all probability, would also be too demanding.

quote:

Originally posted by John_L_Cornell:
They're in boot camp not summer camp, exactly! Guys going into the Maries know what they are getting into when they sign up. Anything to get these guys prepared for war should be done. (Take a look at what happeneds to our guys once captured). I am sure this was a knock on the head with the flash light not a full swing. Big deal. It’s all about discipline. Forget your combo now, what are you going to do in combat, forget your ammo? These guys are in training. Sounds a bit like someone is now having second thoughts about signing up. Except they fact that many of your “Rights” are on “hold” while in the service.

In total agreements, they should have join the coast guard and not my beloved Corps.

I still question why it is necessary to abuse someone in order for them to learn a lesson. The other Military services don't abuse recruits and they seem to learn their lessons quite well. I wasn't abused in Army basic training and yet I survived two tours in Vietnam. Does a Marine need to be abused in order to learn his daily lessons?

How many of you were a DI/DS? Boot camp nor Basic Training does not prepare you for war. It gives you some very basic training. What the DI's/DS's try to accomplish in the short time they have trainees will never be enough to prepare a Warrior for combat. The real training starts when they get to their unit. If you have been a DI/DS ever or, within the last 10 or even 5 years, you know you are under the micrscope all day every day! You are not allowed to put your hands on a trainee for any reason except for safety reasons. It's very difficult to effectively train recruits and live within the guidelines of policy, rules & regulations and successfully complete your tour as a DI/DS. But, each DI/DS who don's that hat already knows that. They know the parameters of what can & can not be done. They didn't get the priveledge of donning that hat by being a shlub. They are/were supposed to be among the best. Sometimes even the good ones get "caught up" because the veered from what guides them; Train the recruit, nothing more, nothing less. He has pleaded innocent to the charges, so, if he did nothing wrong, then the truth will come out. But again, he knows he is held to a different standard by virtue of him wearing the hat and being a DI. If found innocent, the recruits will face little or no punishment. But the DI if found guilty, will lose everything. That is the natue of the beast; not saying it's right; it's part of the job and srutiny of this very difficult but rewarding job.

Excuse me! I dont expect non-Marines to understand the bond we have because we have proven our toughness both in and out of battle. Boot camp was no dream in 1961 for this skinny kid from Iowa. I survived boot camp and didnt believe it was necessary to run tell someone that I took a throttling, a punch to the solar plexis, Kept standing on the grinder in oppresive heat, or midnight locker runs, and many other pleasures of MCRD...I knew what I was getting into and so did these kids...suck it up. Our DI's had riding crops which stung like hell.

I take great pride in saying "Once a Marine Always a Marine. I was at MCRD in '67. If all the DI's did was hit me in the head with a tent-pole and make me role in puke It was a easy day.

Suck it up and be a Marine. The Corps is not for cry babies!

Waterbowling, I remember those days! Trick is to let most of it drain down your face. As for abuse, go ask some old Marines about being punched in the ribs. I never witnessed physical abuse but that should not happen. There are other ways to make life miserable just like combat. If they forget combinations in training they'll forget something in combat and get people killed. Keep it as tough as possible and push the limit of what is acceptable minus physical abuse.

When I went thru Coast Guard Boot Camp in 1958 we had the same thing as the marines. Same PT and same tough company commanders. Who do you think got you Jar Heads onto the beach in WWII. The Coast Guard landing craft drivers had the highest, percapita, casualty rate in the war.

quote:

Originally posted by corruptone:

quote:

Originally posted by John_L_Cornell:
They're in boot camp not summer camp, exactly! Guys going into the Maries know what they are getting into when they sign up. Anything to get these guys prepared for war should be done. (Take a look at what happeneds to our guys once captured). I am sure this was a knock on the head with the flash light not a full swing. Big deal. It’s all about discipline. Forget your combo now, what are you going to do in combat, forget your ammo? These guys are in training. Sounds a bit like someone is now having second thoughts about signing up. Except they fact that many of your “Rights” are on “hold” while in the service.

In total agreements, they should have join the coast guard and not my beloved Corps.

I don't condone being "soft" or just pushing them through; that hurts the effectiveness of us as a fight force in the big picture. Recruits should be under stress and duress while in boot camp or basic training. Beat downs and blanket parties are a thing of the past, right or wrong, like it or not. If a DI/DS wants to successfully complete their tour, there is very little room for veering from poicy. Commanders have very little pity because they are more worried about how it will reflect on them then making sure thier DI's/DS's are successful. My Company Commander turned in a fellow DS from his own company for "abuse" because he didn't want to be seen as ignoring a "so-called" problem. Now, how do you think the rest of his Command time went when the DS was exonerated and returned to the company? It cuts both ways, and like I said, being in that hat for 2 and even 3 years, it's quite a ride let me tell you...

I believe in tough treatment, not abusive treatment. While as a police officer, unfortuately I had to arrest some former marines for domestic violence. During the interrogation process, some admitted they had been mistreated as a child, others hadn't. So, where did that abusive nature spawn from? When a grown man beats his wife and/or children, military or cilivian, he is nothing more than a coward. I'm not going to stand in jugement of this DI, but, if he did assault these recruits with a weapon in his hand, he is a coward. If he was just smacking to get attention from a recruit that is one thing, but crowning someone with a flashlight, come on. Back in the early 1990's two friends of mine who were police officers on the Detroit P.D. were charged with murder for striking a suspect in the head with a mag-light. He died as a result of a cocaine induced heart attack, But the district attorneys office still filed charges. What would have happened if this recriut was struck and it caused a cranial bleed? We are already discussing on another post about Traumatic Brain Injuries amongst veterans. They can be tough without being abusive, period.

As one who spent a tour in every branch of service, I can tell you that the USMC has no equal as far as bootcamp goes. I went in San Diego 1975. The things that I saw and was forced to do have kept me alive through War Zones, Tsunamis, Earthquakes , Tornados and Hurricanes. No, the USMC is not for everyone and that is way about 15% never make on average. When the other are off coughing and getting sick , the Marines go out and kill something accomplishing the mission. So, he got a broken razor and saw some human puk!? What would he do if he was faced with 50,000 stinking dead bodies like we were on Sri lanka after the Tsunami in 2004? What would the do if he saw his budddies head taken clean off by an AK round? Is he going to testify about that to someone who gives a crap!? Get with the program or get the hell of out of my Marine Corps! I'm still serving with USAFR doing combat medical evac. I'm no NONHACKER GSF

There are two sides to this story. Everybody knows that there are sadistic people out there. MAYBE this DI could have taught the recruits the same thing in a more "sensative" way. MAYBE he likes layin' hands a little to freely. If this was the case I think his fellow DI's and his commander WOULD have intervened. The more likely accurate version of this story is this is another example of the "pussification" of the United States. Remember the honor that was bestowed upon young GI's or Marines when they first earned their NCO stripes, bloodpinning? Or walking the line? Remember the days of the gunjeep (M151) when you weren't "really" a gunner until you were thrown from the vehicle during "tactical movement"? Nowadays that sorta stuff would merit a congressional hearing! BUT, that was the sort of stuff that gave our fighting man the intestinal fortitude to fight a world wide war AND win it! Don't get me wrong, I'm not besmirching the members of our armed forces; I believe they are the FINEST of Americans. But when our elected leaders turn wimp, what does that hold for the future of our military?

quote:

IMace
Basic Training

Posted Thu 08 November 2007 08:25 AM Hide Post
I take great pride in saying "Once a Marine Always a Marine. I was at MCRD in '67. If all the DI's did was hit me in the head with a tent-pole and make me role in puke It was a easy day.

Suck it up and be a Marine. The Corps is not for cry babies!

I went through MCRD in 55 and I was no angel, was slapped around a few times, even had two DIs throw me through a barracks window ( of course no glass in it) can't count the times my foot locker was turned upside down, or how many times at 2 in the morning banging on a trash can by a DI yelling flood drill, had to roll your mattress and hold it up between your legs,or hold 2 fire buckets out while the platoon filled them with sand,with there spoon and guess what , I'm still alive, Now you ask what did all this do for me or any of the others, the answer for me is I learned to suck the hard and bad things up and keep going.Did it make a better man of me I would like to believe it did.

My husband was a DI at Ft. Ord during the 60s, and there was a lot of abuse going on back then. My husband didn't do the abuse, but he talked to me about other DIs who let the power of control go to their heads, and abused the troops. Some of the things they forced some of the troops to do, was plain nonsense. Some of the DIs were like the school bullies. So I'm glad to see that this kind of unnecessary abuse to our troops is finally being addressed. In general, the military seems to think that, what ever they do to you is legal, and okay, as long as you are in the service.

I agree that these recruits need to be toughened up in case they go to war and end up prisoners, but it isn't necessary to make them do dumb things, and cause them to resent the military, of which they volunteered to serve in.

Perhaps, the military should look at the things that the insurgents did to our prisoners in Iraq, then do those things to our recruits; but do them on a smaller scale. Personally, I don't think that you can actually toughen anybody up to face the harshness inflicted on prisoners of war. Whacking our recruits upside the ehad with a rifle butt, still won't make them able to not get brain damage from someone doing a full swing to the side of their head with a rifle butt as a prisoner of war. It just seems to me that some of these DIs get off on forcing these recruits to do petty things, and like being able to hit guys they might not like, or just feel like pushing someone around. I think that is called abuse of power. Furthermore, a DI is not legally allowed to physically beat on the recruits.