RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,155644,00.html

Well, here we go again over easing recruitment standards. What I have not seen in this and other articles, is tracking those with waivers and discipline problems later. Is there a correlation between problems before and after enlistment? If there is one, good reason not to lower the standards. One problem child takes a lot of looking after. Resources are better spent on quality recruits and service members than those requiring additional supervision. Have a good day!~!

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Originally posted by SLDO:
Well, here we go again over easing recruitment standards. What I have not seen in this and other articles, is tracking those with waivers and discipline problems later. Is there a correlation between problems before and after enlistment? If there is one, good reason not to lower the standards. One problem child takes a lot of looking after. Resources are better spent on quality recruits and service members than those requiring additional supervision. Have a good day!~!

A problem that seems to occur is that many of the kids with waivers go into the same MOSs, often jobs that don't require a security clearance. So then there are whole groups of problem children in the same units, and just like highschool the bad kids hang out together. I don't have many problems, but I hear horror stories from my friends that are PLs in other units.

The military today has a lot more freedom than years past, they almost all have cars and when the duty day is done they are free to go find trouble if they are looking for it. I think the military can be a good rehab tool, but we don't have the time to concentrate on problem children.

I have a novel idea. Since the U.S. Military is using so many contractors in Iraq, why don't we simply do away with the armed forces and outsource the entire affair. We could then save billions and trillions of dollars by doing away with the Pentagon and DoD. I don't understand why someone else hasn't thought of this sooner. Moreover, the people fighting our war(s) could actually earn a decent wage so their family(ies) don't have to survive on WIC, Food Stamps, and Welfare.

OK, I am just kidding. However, if the current situation doesn't improve. Some genius in the House or Senate may just try to sell this idea.

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Originally posted by nspreitler:

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Originally posted by SLDO:
Well, here we go again over easing recruitment standards. What I have not seen in this and other articles, is tracking those with waivers and discipline problems later. Is there a correlation between problems before and after enlistment? If there is one, good reason not to lower the standards. One problem child takes a lot of looking after. Resources are better spent on quality recruits and service members than those requiring additional supervision. Have a good day!~!

A problem that seems to occur is that many of the kids with waivers go into the same MOSs, often jobs that don't require a security clearance. So then there are whole groups of problem children in the same units, and just like highschool the bad kids hang out together. I don't have many problems, but I hear horror stories from my friends that are PLs in other units.

The military today has a lot more freedom than years past, they almost all have cars and when the duty day is done they are free to go find trouble if they are looking for it. I think the military can be a good rehab tool, but we don't have the time to concentrate on problem children.

SLDO and nspreitler,

During the Vietnam War, we had a similar problem under "Project 100,000" with recruits well below the minimum cut off scores and with felony waivers, etc. It was a nightmare. Vietnam was NOT the place to have to play babysitter and warden. Let's hope this new Army effort is not simply deja vu Project 100,000.

Mustang

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Originally posted by oldmustang:
During the Vietnam War, we had a similar problem under "Project 100,000" with recruits well below the minimum cut off scores and with felony waivers, etc.

I've talked to a lot of 'Nam vets over the years, and I agree - we don't need to go back to that! I gotta ask, though - we were using the draft. Why in the heck did we also need to lower standards? Wouldn't it have been easier just to draft a few more good ones? Okay, several more, to make up for the percentage of sudden Canadians...

There is a reason the honest, hardworking, trustworthy kids of today aren't joining the military...they see the way the administration is utilizing our military and they want NO PART of it. I don't blame them one bit. These "good" kids don't NEED the military so the military is being forced to "scrape the bottom of the barrel" for new recruits. At least with a draft they would be able to choose from a better pool of candidates. At least until some individuals start committing crimes to avoid getting drafted

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Originally posted by mmulder67:
There is a reason the honest, hardworking, trustworthy kids of today aren't joining the military...they see the way the administration is utilizing our military and they want NO PART of it. I don't blame them one bit. These "good" kids don't NEED the military so the military is being forced to "scrape the bottom of the barrel" for new recruits. At least with a draft they would be able to choose from a better pool of candidates. At least until some individuals start committing crimes to avoid getting drafted

I disagree with that too, most of the kids joining are honest, hardworking, and trustworthy, even some of the ones that did need waivers to join. There are some that are not, but most of the Soldiers are the "good" kids and are far from the bottom of the barrel.

Reinstate the Draft, Then the Military Heads Can Pick and Choose Who Goes Where, They can take young college Grads and place them in Positions that would help the Back Bone of the Military, They can take the waiver soldiers and put them Boot's In Sand Infantrymen, They can give the regular soldier who joins Pick Of MOS if they pass the needed requirements for that MOS. Again REINSTATE the DRAFT Let Everyone In This Country Do Thier Part Against Terrorism.
Proud Of My Marine.

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Originally posted by nspreitler:

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Originally posted by mmulder67:
There is a reason the honest, hardworking, trustworthy kids of today aren't joining the military...they see the way the administration is utilizing our military and they want NO PART of it. I don't blame them one bit. These "good" kids don't NEED the military so the military is being forced to "scrape the bottom of the barrel" for new recruits. At least with a draft they would be able to choose from a better pool of candidates. At least until some individuals start committing crimes to avoid getting drafted

I disagree with that too, most of the kids joining are honest, hardworking, and trustworthy, even some of the ones that did need waivers to join. There are some that are not, but most of the Soldiers are the "good" kids and are far from the bottom of the barrel.

You and I agree on this. I was one of those "waiver" kids almost 28 years ago. No highschool diploma and drug use in my background. Not only did I turn my life around, I gained respect in the military, positions of reponsibility and leadership, assigned to billets with more stringent clearance requirements, and I'm getting ready to begin work on my MPA. There is a good chance that many are just like me. It can't be all that bad. Then again, some would think otherwise ...

A big problem as I see it is not so much with taking those with waivers it is the difficulty of kicking people out. For example I have a Soldier on his first enlistment and he had received 4 Article 15s almost all for the same thing. Yet he is still around, and he might get chaptered after we come back from a 15 month deployment. I say take the waivers, make IET harder and make it easier for company level leadership to get rid of people.

The problem with meeting recruitment goals has nothing to do with the way the Bush Administration is handling the war. For the most part it has largely everything to do with the vast amount of negative publicity this war and the military has been getting from the anti war crowd and especially the media. The other part is the innability of the Bush Administration to be more openly aggressive when it comes to dealing with the media and its lies.
Regarding the lowering of standards, a criminal will always be a criminal, some get caught others don't, some made stupid mistakes and have to pay for the rest of their life even after they've been punished. The fact that the military is doing this has nothing to do with avoiding the draft. Why do we need a draft when there are still thousands of good people that want to do something good and patriotic.These people that need waivers are still showing more guts and heart than those who would never join the military under any circumstances yet are able to enjoy and abuse the same rights and freedoms as the rest of the citizens. Depending on the crime and if they're not REPEATED OFFENDERS, then this is a great chance to give some the chance to turn their life around and be more pruductive and better humans.

In 1985 when I went through basic training there were 3 individuals in my platoon that were there because the judge gave them 2 options: jail or military. Only 1 made it through only because he was looking at 5-10 year sentence. I never found out what happened to him after but I doubt he staightened out much. I am all for giving someone a second chance. They just have more to prove. If the military helped you get your life straight then you have my congratulations.

I have been trying to join the Army National Guard for almost 4 years. I have an RE-4 from the USMC, 16 years ago.

I went to Parris Island exactly 1 month after the death of my father. Instead of asking to delay my ship date, I went anyway. I told them I tried to kill myself at age 17 to get out. I am 39 now and have a wife and 2 kids and NO suicide attempts ever. Yet I have been denied 3 times. I am willing to take ANY position in the Guard to serve my country; be it Infantryman or even Cook. In is In! I need to fulfill the promise to my country I made long ago.

If accepted, I will NOT let my country down again.

We've all been young and stupid, and in need of discipline and guidance. I don't think a few mistakes in the past should disqualify one from earnestly serving their country.

The military is not rehab, though... Those people need professional help.

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Originally posted by SFC_SOF_Intel:

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Originally posted by nspreitler:

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Originally posted by mmulder67:
There is a reason the honest, hardworking, trustworthy kids of today aren't joining the military...they see the way the administration is utilizing our military and they want NO PART of it. I don't blame them one bit. These "good" kids don't NEED the military so the military is being forced to "scrape the bottom of the barrel" for new recruits. At least with a draft they would be able to choose from a better pool of candidates. At least until some individuals start committing crimes to avoid getting drafted

I disagree with that too, most of the kids joining are honest, hardworking, and trustworthy, even some of the ones that did need waivers to join. There are some that are not, but most of the Soldiers are the "good" kids and are far from the bottom of the barrel.

You and I agree on this. I was one of those "waiver" kids almost 28 years ago. No highschool diploma and drug use in my background. Not only did I turn my life around, I gained respect in the military, positions of reponsibility and leadership, assigned to billets with more stringent clearance requirements, and I'm getting ready to begin work on my MPA. There is a good chance that many are just like me. It can't be all that bad. Then again, some would think otherwise ...

quote:

Originally posted by Striker 1:
The problem with meeting recruitment goals has nothing to do with the way the Bush Administration is handling the war. For the most part it has largely everything to do with the vast amount of negative publicity this war and the military has been getting from the anti war crowd and especially the media. The other part is the innability of the Bush Administration to be more openly aggressive when it comes to dealing with the media and its lies.
Regarding the lowering of standards, a criminal will always be a criminal, some get caught others don't, some made stupid mistakes and have to pay for the rest of their life even after they've been punished. The fact that the military is doing this has nothing to do with avoiding the draft. Why do we need a draft when there are still thousands of good people that want to do something good and patriotic.These people that need waivers are still showing more guts and heart than those who would never join the military under any circumstances yet are able to enjoy and abuse the same rights and freedoms as the rest of the citizens. Depending on the crime and if they're not REPEATED OFFENDERS, then this is a great chance to give some the chance to turn their life around and be more pruductive and better humans.

I agree 100%! I believe everybody should be forgiven of youthful stupidities (drug use). People do clean up and want to serve for their country, especially after what happened on 9-11!!!

I not in the military, but please hear me out, for my percpective as a civilian.

The military used to be a place for "a few good men" then Bill Clinton lifted the ban on women in combat, and what not with gays, so the military has been transforming into just another job. It used to be a place only for warrior with warrior ethos (and still is, but it has been diluted) and if the Pentagon and the President (then Clinton) want the military to look more like the civilain sector, then it would just make more sense to stay in the civilian sector of society.

The military was ONLY a place for warriors, but the feminists and the gay and lesbian lobbyists have done their best to weed that undesirable element out of the military, so know, it's having a hard time getting men who are raw material for military service.

I've read a Kinder Gentler Military by Stephanie Guttman, and others on the subject, and I do have to admit, it's not your fathers military anymore....

And we are much the worse for it.

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Originally posted by Stg77:
I not in the military, but please hear me out, for my percpective as a civilian.

The military used to be a place for "a few good men" then Bill Clinton lifted the ban on women in combat, and what not with gays, so the military has been transforming into just another job. It used to be a place only for warrior with warrior ethos (and still is, but it has been diluted) and if the Pentagon and the President (then Clinton) want the military to look more like the civilain sector, then it would just make more sense to stay in the civilian sector of society.

The military was ONLY a place for warriors, but the feminists and the gay and lesbian lobbyists have done their best to weed that undesirable element out of the military, so know, it's having a hard time getting men who are raw material for military service.

I've read a Kinder Gentler Military by Stephanie Guttman, and others on the subject, and I do have to admit, it's not your fathers military anymore....

That is so far off. Women were a vital part of the military long before Clinton. There is still a ban on women in many combat arms MOSs and units. The DADT policy has had very little impact on the military, all it really changed was MEPS processing asking if you were gay.

Here are some examples about the emasculization of the military.

I've read accounts that you cannot say "I have to take a piss" because it will offend females (and other girly men who are sensitive towards women on the battlefield environment) so they have to say "pee"

Long range F-14 ferry flights (a while ago) male pilots used to piss into a tube, but since the female genitalia does not permit this, they had to invent Unisex pee bladders, for everyone, because it would be sexist if the male pilots had different one from the females.

The list goes on, and from what I used to read, the military was and or is one big Politically Correct institution, and it's not fun, and everyone is getting out, and making more money in the civilian sector of society.

When asked about this, one of the guys getting out of the Navy because of the ridiculous strains of PC culture forced down everyones throat by the Pentagon, said that he never joined the military for the pay anyway. It was to be a warrior, and defend your country, and have fun doing it.

But now, we have the most ridiculous rules of engagement and conduct within the military. I've read of British troops being more affraid of Lawyers back home convicting them of murder than actual terrorists/insurgents on the battle field. You have to file 20 pages of requests to return fire and by the time you get it, the enemy is gone.

I don't know everything, but I know lots of people who have served and are my friends, and while many of the love the Army or Marines or Navy till they die, they sort of hate it at the same time.