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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events In the News U.S. Data Show Nearly 19,000 Iraq Kills|
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New Member |
RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,151270,00.html
Wow, That is a lot of people. If you notice that we are killing less, and detaining more. I guess which is a good thing. |
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Member |
Why is that a good thing? Once you let them go they just might come back and kill you!
Plus I just love the way the article was title. 19,000 Iraq kills! Why not Enemy kills? Just another way to undermind the whole thing. |
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Experienced Member |
119,752 people arrested so far. On the serious charge of suspected terrorism. A charge that in America, is a mandatory life sentence. And we are presently arresting about 100 more such people a day. Does America have any realistic strategy—any realistic strategy at all—for providing justice to detainees? With "justice" meaning, freedom to the innocent, punishment to the guilty? I think everybody, "red" and "blue" alike, recognizes that in fact, America has pursued no effective strategy for rebuilding Iraq's justice system. This inexcusable lack has greatly harmed both the war effort, and America's reputation as the nation of justice. For this, I blame one man: Mr. Alberto Gonzales. Mr. Gonzales' inexcusable dereliction of duty, sustained over many years, has been one of the central reasons for the strategic disaster, that is Iraq's failed justice system. Mr. Gonzales sustained, over many years, an almost incredible level of incompetence, stupidity, short-sightedness, mission-dodging, and partisan political ideology, that was in my opinion without parallel in any previous Attorney General.   I am very glad that Mr. Gonzales is gone, and I am extremely angry that he was not fired years earlier. Ask yourself, which would you rather do without: electricity, water, sanitation, or justice? Iraqis today have "none of the above". This is the signature of a war effort whose strategic planning and accountability has been utterly bankrupt from the beginning. To the great harm of our brave soldiers. |
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Experienced Member |
Every time people try to defend Albert Gonzales' role in rebuilding the Iraqi justice system, I think of that scene in the John Cleese comedy Fierce Creatures:
That describes Mr. Gonzales' Iraq War role perfectly: "He wasn't even there." And just to mention, FM 3-24 assigns huge and vital roles in COIN operations to Justice and State. Roles that Alberto Gonzales and Condoleeza Rice were utterly derelict in filling. To the great harm of the war effort and our soldiers. How anyone can defend this utter dereliction of duty, which has been a disaster for the Iraq War effort and for our soldiers, is beyond me. The folks at State and Justice should be working 24x7, right now, to fix this disaster. Because otherwise we have no hope whatsoever, of honorable victory in Iraq. But even now—very late in the game—there is no evidence whatsoever that the lights are on at the White House, or in Congress. In consequence, all of our military victories, and the sacrifices of our soldiers, are at-risk of being squandered, due solely to inadequate planning, followup and accountability. Summary: both parties are equally derelict in their duty to our soldiers. My 2¢. |
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Member |
Insurgents are persons who don't agree with US invasion. Justice will be served to the 120,000? Won't this be expensive to determine, define this?
Do US have any guarantee that this killing and detaining isn't increasing "insurgents?" More than two years ago excess deaths since the invasion according to a Columbia/Hopkins study was 655,000. History will record that Saddam handled the Shi'ite problem with less blood than US. And that Stalin was right to purge his army of German infection. |
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New Member |
In all the history of WAR, the measure of success on the battlefield is the bodycount. The troop on the ground wants to hear the bodycount, he can careless about politics.
Yet as this war keeps going, the American public, the LIBERAL public wants to use this against the war in Iraq. WAR is hell...there is no such thing as a "popular" war, ask the 140,000 plus insurgents that have been taken out of action, if it is popular to him. It is not, the enemy is getting his butt kicked, but don't try to have a Democrat Liberal tell you that, to them we are losing.... |
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Highly Experienced Member Old Fart #00  |
It is good that a measure for tracking enemy combatant casualties is in place, however, with no presumption as to how many of those wounded in battle may have later died outside Multinational Forces control, the accuracy of the report goes right out the window!
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Experienced Member |
Body counts are a joke. The only reason this article was published is that the press and the US government have started a policy of measuring success in the exact opposite way we did in Vietnam. Instead of using enemy body counts as a measuring stick, we are using civilian and US casualties. Every month the total number of coalition and Iraqi deaths are scrutinized and stacked up against previous months. Listening to the congressional hearings, it seems that these deaths are the only measure of success or failure in the current war. Just as enemy body counts in Vietnam led to false conclusions then, I feel that using US and Iraqi deaths could end up causing the same problems today.
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Highly Experienced Member |
I guess it all depends on which survey you go with as far as the number of deaths. Some say 70,000+ others as high as 1 million. Iraqi Health Minister Ali al-Shemari has the number at 100-150,000. Not to belittle the deaths, it's all tragic. Dead is dead. I dare say that the Shittes still would not look at Saddam anymore kindly, because he tortured more killed less.  As far as Stalin's purges of his generals, it may be that he is responsible for the huge number of Soviet deaths. The Nazis might not had gotten as far as they did if the "purged" generals were alive to direct the battles instead of the second & third string generals that were left. |
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Experienced Member |
Hard to believe that an American would sound so much like Stalin. What you say amounts to this: "Throw every suspected insurgent into American-run prison camps. Then throw away the key. It is true that some may be innocent, but who cares?" That strategy is (1) a disgrace to every American ideal, and equally bad (2) it is a flat-out losing strategy in Iraq, because each person jailed without a just trial, stokes the recruiting effort of the insurgency. I am astounded that so many on this forum are willing to defend an Iraq justice system that is flat-out Stalinist. History will judge America as harshly as it has judged the (now defunct) Soviet Union, if America continues down this path of injustice. |
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Suspended for twenty days for disruptive posts. Contact mod on or about 11 January 2008. |
Those numbers simply show the *** that we have kicked, period. Twist, turn, and liberalize it all you want. Maybe if numbers like this had been openly reported by the media from the very start, our more "impressionable and easily swayed" Americans wouldn't think so poorly of our military's ability to do their job.
Furthermore, those of you who condemn our war-effort on these forums, and then later comment that you "support the troops" blagh..blagh..blagh...etc, are a disgrace. Sure you can have your opinion about whatever you want, this is America, but have enough common sense not to be a walking contradiction. From a soldier's perspective, you are either with us or against us. There is no in-between, people. You don't get to shake our hand and "thank us for our service", and then turn around and whine about how bad things are. I would rather you just walk right past me in the airport and not say a thing, then act like you love and support me to then only spit on the effort that I ,"we", have fought so hard for. And those of you who justify your opinions because you have a son, neighbor, or a friend that is over there, you are the most despicable of them all. I'm sure you don't let them know that why they are downrange in the ****, you sit back here pissing on their service, do you? You people, and you know who you are, should be utterly ashamed. |
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Experienced Member |
With respect, illinscout, Gen. Petraeus has asked every soldier in Iraq to "embrace the warrior, builder, diplomat" spirit. And you can read Gen. Petraeus whole message here. Are you with that program, or against it? Because it is sure hard to read in your post, that you are for it. |
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Member |
Dont use blanket statements like they have none of the above because now I know your just talking out of your keester. How about you base your statements on facts instead of falacy.. |
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Suspended for twenty days for disruptive posts. Contact mod on or about 11 January 2008. |
NickBrand, I salute you from Florida, good sir.
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Experienced Member |
NickBrand, with respect, I think this whole thread would benefit if everyone read those passages in FM 3-24 Counterinsurgency that contain the word "justice." There are precisely 28 such passages. These passages make it clear, that until America deals justly in Iraq, we cannot win. To pretend that we are doing an adequate job building an Iraqi justice system, when in fact we are *not* doing an adequate job, is no act of patriotism. It is in fact the very opposite: juvenile "pretending" and "cheerleading" that we are doing a good job, when in fact we are not, is a disastrous disservice to our troops. I for one have no patience left, for this kind of "pretending", of which there has been far too much in this war so far, to the great harm of our soldiers. |
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New Member |
ahh....so the liberal left speaks....if astounded you better pick a side...as your sons who fought and lost limbs, they too chose a side. Regardless if you think your ideals will "save the world" your ideals are not going to keep the Islamic way of thinking from creeping into the UNITED SATES, and that belief is to destroy EVERYTHING you believe in. This war is not just about Iraq it’s the ENTIRE Middle East. As Iran has entered into out country by the likes and beliefs of people such as the liberals who claim that there values are the truest and purest of the American people, think again. I don't think you would make it one day in an Islamic way of life, your FREE will think will get you a stoning and 50 lashes. So you picked a side and that’s great, but even Stalin had to police up his own people, and guess what, you are the minority in here... |
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Member |
I tend to think those numbers would be much higher...guessing at least double...had the military not had their hands tied by lawyers and congress playing PC and undermining the efforts of the military...
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Suspended for twenty days for disruptive posts. Contact mod on or about 11 January 2008. |
usmc_family: I believe you've exposed yourself as a disgusting liberal puke who is also, for lack of a better word, stupid. This post started about our kill numbers, and you continue blab on, and on, and on, and on about crapp like FM 3-24 and the Iraq justice system??? Nobody knows what the hell you're talking about, and as far as Gen Petraeus talking about "embracing the warrior, diplomat, builder spirit" yea, that all well and good when you're not getting your butt shot off by haji, but people who have been there have another philosophy of not getting killed first.
You are a filthy liberal who placates their on agenda, because you feel you have a right to simply because your kid went to the box. This is a forum on Military.com, not "moveon.org". Take your book full of crapp, and read it somewhere else. You're a despicable liberal who has never fought in this war, and I feel sorry for your kids. (illinscout takes a step back, and bows to a roaring ovation)  .': usmc_family |
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New Member |
Bravo!! Bravo!! |
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Suspended for twenty days for disruptive posts. Contact mod on or about 11 January 2008. |
I salute you, good sir |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events In the News U.S. Data Show Nearly 19,000 Iraq Kills
