Another example of fighting a war with our hands tied around our packages! So, this must not really classified as a war and we need to think about the stability of our own leaders and their lack of aggressive fighting to void the insurgance and all the violence they perform.
Time to go home if this is what it has come to, as "baiting" has been in force since I went to sniper school, and works very well. My son just left for Iraq for an 18 month tour and I see this as soldiers fighting for their existence due to the interference of the American Government....now I am really worried!
Good! Baiting works for rodents and insects, why not insurgents? I don't see a difference?!
By the way baiting is done everyday in this country by law enforcement, bait cars, prostitution stings, child predator traps, etc... This is just the war zone version of it. I say whatever works to draw out the scum.
yea in paintball i would leave a few tubs of paint laying around and snipe at whoever went for it.... hehehe yea that was fun.... i had a nice system for my paintball rifle... and it was accurate up to 100+yards... well at 400+fps that was back in the old days of paintball before it all went into speedball...
I think this is a BS tactic if we are doing it. Picking something up is not an admission of guilt. Planting evidence is certainly not a good thing. I am all for the fight and not tieing hands, but there needs to be some integrity involved in it.
Saying that, I am tired of people doing the wrong thing then using the "orders" excuse. One of the first lessons I learned in the military was the term "LAWFUL order". Planting evidence can not be seen as lawful by any stretch of the imagination. If you did it you were wrong, period. You should suffer the same penalty as those who ordered you.
Remember guys, morals and values are the only thing that separates us from these monsters. We need to keep that separation.
Do you really think a 18 year old kid is going to challenge a direct order from his command? Or, have the education and experience to determine what a lawful order is or is not? Guess we should have lawyers in every unit to check with before squeezing the trigger??
Speaking of BS tactics, roadside bombs, IED's, women suicide bombers, etc... in and amongst the civilian population??? Come on, it's ugly, nasty urban warfare the likes of which we never faced before...adapt, improvise, overcome. Go get em' Rangers!!
Originally posted by PD3rdACR: I think this is a BS tactic if we are doing it. Picking something up is not an admission of guilt. Planting evidence is certainly not a good thing. I am all for the fight and not tieing hands, but there needs to be some integrity involved in it.
I have to disagree with you since you don't have any valid point to your thesis. Let me ellaborate- It's CLASSIFIED! They've had these tactics in place for years! YEARS! Long before you and I work the BDU! So please man, take that liberal approach and drop it off in the poop can behind latrine #4 on Hill 236 ok? The reason they do this is two fold, one. The target of opportunity is going to see something laying in the road, what are we going to put up there? A sign that says "ONLY PICK UP IF YOU'RE A HOMOCIDIST! BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT YOUR 8 O'CLOCK YOU WILL NOTICE THE DISTINCT OUTLINE OF AN AMERICAN WAITING TO SHOOT YOUR HEAD OFF!" ????? NO! Only a liberal would think that way! I don't know nor do I care what your view is on this, but you're wrong and so is the court! Premeditated murder? Please, if you're not a DEE DEE DEE! They were following LAWFUL orders and specific mission protocols. If they thought it was the wrong thing to do, we are obligated to challenge any order that may put us in a precarious position and jeopardize not only the freedoms of the people we're trying to protect (IRAQ! GET A GRIP! TAKE YOUR COUNTRY BACK FROM THESE BASTARDS!), we're taking tactics into account that we KNOW WORK! Some snivley snot headed joe probably shot his mouth off and then the witch hunt started, because he thought it might be his/her ticket home.
Saying that, I am tired of people doing the wrong thing then using the "orders" excuse. One of the first lessons I learned in the military was the term "LAWFUL order". Planting evidence can not be seen as lawful by any stretch of the imagination. If you did it you were wrong, period. You should suffer the same penalty as those who ordered you.
Read my above statement, yeah they did it alright and took an insurgent POS off the street and protected the lives of their comrades. You reading me der komissar? Open your eyes and take off the blinders, if it takes not playing by the rules to kill the rule breakers, but actively targeting the enemy by untitizing a tactic that I'm not supposed to know about, then so be it.
Remember guys, morals and values are the only thing that separates us from these monsters. We need to keep that separation.
No, it's not. Morals and Values carry the professionalism that we have as a fighting force. It takes a heavy heart to pull that trigger on someone, you see that face at night, you see that f'ers eyes go dead, you see your round impact and have to live with that. Is it a hard heart that does that job? No, it's a man who has to live with his job that does it.
Don't judge these snipers as war criminals. Judge them as four soldiers conducting deadly counterinsurgency operations so your *** can sit home and drink latte's and eat bon bon's all day.
You do what you're instructed to do and remember this, "Who dares, wins" and the 1st commandment of combat, "Thou shalt use all means to win, even if you have to cheat every once in a while!"
Does this mean murder, no, but that's what War is...justified homicide....sometimes.
Don't you just love it when the arm chair chicken generals chime in. It ain't like they are setting up in the middle of a crouded market and setting out their bait. It's not like they are shooting into weding parties or funerals. The target area is chosen for maximum success.
Baiting is a far cry from planting evidence after the fact, but the reality is, neither is a responsible idea. Baiting does work very well, but you don't know if the person taking the bait intends to use it or turn it in to authorities to prevent its use by others. The sniper may in fact be killing an ally. The trouble here is once again they're prosecuting the boots on the ground instead of dealing with the bonehead that instituted the policy in the first place.
Sounds like a good tactic to me. The more Liberal idiots you get in the Military to more this kind of crap (courts marshall of soldiers) is going to happen. Let 'em win the damn thing for Crissakes! Leave them alone and let 'em do the job you sent them there to do.
I think this is a BS tactic if we are doing it. Picking something up is not an admission of guilt. Planting evidence is certainly not a good thing. I am all for the fight and not tieing hands, but there needs to be some integrity involved in it.
The avatar explains it all - Air force. Go back to playing with your model planes and let the big boys take care of things.
- The article states: "Army Ranger Snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials..."
Sgt. Evan Vela ...Army soldier accused of planting evidence on an Iraqi he killed acted "pursuant to orders." did exactly what he was under orders to do. . . KILL... Army has a classified program that encourages snipers to "bait" potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon. "Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Hello, were at war.
Does the military have a sudden case of stupid? The court martial of one of the accused Soldiers, Spec. Jorge Sandoval Jr., is scheduled to begin in Baghdad on Wednesday. Also facing premeditated murder charges are Vela and Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley. Is this a joke? How strange the very man who gave the orders i.e., Capt. Matthew P. Didier gave the orders he should be charged equally who's kidding whom? Seems to me someone been eating way to many Twinkies. Is our Government going insane? Our military needs to be allowed to their jobs.
Is it any wonder why the Low Recruitment Levels? WHEW! We're at war people, knock, knock hello anyone home, are yawl out to lunch? Fine example of Ivy League educated!
I'm more concerned about the liberal rag (Washington Post) talking about how we conduct operations while smearing our troops in the process. I'm all for freedom of the press (that's one of the things we all served to protect) but when does that cross over into treason by aiding and abetting the enemy? I think the news media needs to police themselves before the government decides to. They need to learn that abused freedoms won't stay free for long.
Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon should be charged equally he gave the orders. Excuse me last I heard we're at war, hello did anyone notice. Has the government gone insane?
quote:
Originally posted by Echofixer: Do you really think a 18 year old kid is going to challenge a direct order from his command? Or, have the education and experience to determine what a lawful order is or is not? Guess we should have lawyers in every unit to check with before squeezing the trigger??
Speaking of BS tactics, roadside bombs, IED's, women suicide bombers, etc... in and amongst the civilian population??? Come on, it's ugly, nasty urban warfare the likes of which we never faced before...adapt, improvise, overcome. Go get em' Rangers!!
Just another reason why "lawyers" should be castrated or neutered at birth. The longer we are in Iraq the more silly things you will see. I will never forget the rules of engamement in Vietnam at one point. Unless you were in a free fire zone you had to call out three times: "Halt, dung lai", before squeezing off a round. In practice though, this seldom occurred unless you wanted to go home early in a body bag. Nothing could be more stupid than to identify yourself to the enemy by standing up and screaming out a disclaimer before you fired. That one or two second advantage you give to enemy combatants could very well send a whole volley your way from multiple bad guys. Again, if our own military will stoop so low as to bring charges against snipers for using "bait" tactics in a combat zone, they will surely resort to lying to citizens about how well they are doing fighting the war. Oops! Did I just let another cat out of the bag?
So, this must not really classified as a war and we need to think about the stability of our own leaders and their lack of aggressive fighting to void the insurgance and all the violence they perform. 
