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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events In the News Anti-War Soldiers Killed in Accident|
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RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,149158,00.html
Anti-war soldiers ???? Sounds like an oxymoron to me, but, they were in theater and they were following orders even though they didn't think it was right. I don't question the commitment of the soldiers only the administration's (failed) policies on the middle east....JMHO Of all escape mechanisms, Death is the most efficient. ~~ H.L. Mencken |
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If a tree falls in a forest and lands on a politician, even if you can't hear the tree or the screams, I'll bet you'd at least hear the applause. Paul Tindale  |
Unfortunately, you need to purchase thy NYT article from below site.
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F5071EF...7A8DDDA10894DF404482 This article provides a bit more information. So, read in entirety before starting to bash these soldiers http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/12/82nd-soldiers/ Two Of Seven Soldiers Who Wrote New York Times Op-Ed Die In Iraq On Aug. 19, seven active duty soldiers of the 82nd Airborne Division wrote an op-ed in The New York Times called “The War As We Saw It.” The piece expressed skepticism about “recent press coverage portraying the conflict as increasingly manageable”: The claim that we are increasingly in control of the battlefields in Iraq is an assessment arrived at through a flawed, American-centered framework. […] In the end, we need to recognize that our presence may have released Iraqis from the grip of a tyrant, but that it has also robbed them of their self-respect. They will soon realize that the best way to regain dignity is to call us what we are — an army of occupation — and force our withdrawal. […] We need not talk about our morale. As committed soldiers, we will see this mission through. On Monday, two of these soldiers — Sgt. Omar Mora and Sgt. Yance Gray — died in a vehicle accident in Western Baghdad. The news of their deaths came as Gen. David Petraeus wrapped up his testimony to Congress about the Bush administration’s progress in Iraq. The soldiers’ courage to speak out has helped change the debate. In yesterday’s Senate hearing, Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) read from the soldiers’ op-ed. Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) also referenced the op-ed, challenging Petraeus’s rosy assessments: HAGEL: By the way, I assume you read the New York Times piece two weeks ago — seven NCOs in Iraq, today, finishing up 15 month commitments. Are we going to dismiss those seven NCOs? Are they ignorant? They laid out a pretty different scenario, General, Ambassador, from what you’re laying out today. Mora’s stepfather said that Mora believed the “situation in Iraq was desperate” and was sad that children in Iraq were “having to live” with the war going on. His mother said that Mora, who was on his second tour of duty, was supposed to be coming home in November. Mora is survived by his wife, Christa, and 5-year-old daughter, Jordan. Gray is survived by his wife, Jessica, and infant daughter, Ava. One of the other five authors, Staff Sgt. Jeremy Murphy, was shot in the head while the article was being written. He is expected to recover. Have a good day!~!   |
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Where are the Carriers? |
$5 to purchase a single article? You can KMA double quick.Were these guys commenting on the pre-surge debacle? If so, to call them anti-war is a smear. Anti-incompetence maybe.
"Thank you, for your support." - Bartles & Jaymes |
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They have to make up for that huge ad discount rate they gave to Moveon.org!  |
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"This article provides a bit more information. So, read in entirety before starting to bash these soldiers"
We only hear what is said over the airwaves and read what is printed in the papers (and the internet), so to take everything at face value makes you gullible at best. I only re-stated what the article said and that I SUPPORT the soldiers not the administration. Apparently you did not understand my comments. IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM WILL I EVER "BASH" ANY SOLDIER!!! So please DO NOT accuse me of something I did not do. I agree with the opinion of those soldiers. Thank-you... Of all escape mechanisms, Death is the most efficient. ~~ H.L. Mencken |
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LOL  |
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Cant speak evil against dead colligues. They remained heroes even in death. There cant be a better judgement on the situation in iraq than the one coming from these active participants in the theatre of war. At least they died while expressing their true feelings. No matter the uncomplementary remarks from pundits, these soldiers are the last few good men. May the lord accept their sacrifice amen.
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Here is the article for all of you cheapskates.
 Op-Ed Contributors The War as We Saw It Save Share Digg Newsvine Permalink By BUDDHIKA JAYAMAHA, WESLEY D. SMITH, JEREMY ROEBUCK, OMAR MORA, EDWARD SANDMEIER, YANCE T. GRAY and JEREMY A. MURPHY Published: August 19, 2007 Baghdad Skip to next paragraph Enlarge This Image Paul Hoppe Related 2 G.I.’s, Skeptical but Loyal, Die in a Truck Crash in Iraq (Sept. 13) VIEWED from Iraq at the tail end of a 15-month deployment, the political debate in Washington is indeed surreal. Counterinsurgency is, by definition, a competition between insurgents and counterinsurgents for the control and support of a population. To believe that Americans, with an occupying force that long ago outlived its reluctant welcome, can win over a recalcitrant local population and win this counterinsurgency is far-fetched. As responsible infantrymen and noncommissioned officers with the 82nd Airborne Division soon heading back home, we are skeptical of recent press coverage portraying the conflict as increasingly manageable and feel it has neglected the mounting civil, political and social unrest we see every day. (Obviously, these are our personal views and should not be seen as official within our chain of command.) The claim that we are increasingly in control of the battlefields in Iraq is an assessment arrived at through a flawed, American-centered framework. Yes, we are militarily superior, but our successes are offset by failures elsewhere. What soldiers call the “battle space” remains the same, with changes only at the margins. It is crowded with actors who do not fit neatly into boxes: Sunni extremists, Al Qaeda terrorists, Shiite militiamen, criminals and armed tribes. This situation is made more complex by the questionable loyalties and Janus-faced role of the Iraqi police and Iraqi Army, which have been trained and armed at United States taxpayers’ expense. A few nights ago, for example, we witnessed the death of one American soldier and the critical wounding of two others when a lethal armor-piercing explosive was detonated between an Iraqi Army checkpoint and a police one. Local Iraqis readily testified to American investigators that Iraqi police and Army officers escorted the triggermen and helped plant the bomb. These civilians highlighted their own predicament: had they informed the Americans of the bomb before the incident, the Iraqi Army, the police or the local Shiite militia would have killed their families. As many grunts will tell you, this is a near-routine event. Reports that a majority of Iraqi Army commanders are now reliable partners can be considered only misleading rhetoric. The truth is that battalion commanders, even if well meaning, have little to no influence over the thousands of obstinate men under them, in an incoherent chain of command, who are really loyal only to their militias. Similarly, Sunnis, who have been underrepresented in the new Iraqi armed forces, now find themselves forming militias, sometimes with our tacit support. Sunnis recognize that the best guarantee they may have against Shiite militias and the Shiite-dominated government is to form their own armed bands. We arm them to aid in our fight against Al Qaeda. However, while creating proxies is essential in winning a counterinsurgency, it requires that the proxies are loyal to the center that we claim to support. Armed Sunni tribes have indeed become effective surrogates, but the enduring question is where their loyalties would lie in our absence. The Iraqi government finds itself working at cross purposes with us on this issue because it is justifiably fearful that Sunni militias will turn on it should the Americans leave. In short, we operate in a bewildering context of determined enemies and questionable allies, one where the balance of forces on the ground remains entirely unclear. (In the course of writing this article, this fact became all too clear: one of us, Staff Sergeant Murphy, an Army Ranger and reconnaissance team leader, was shot in the head during a “time-sensitive target acquisition mission” on Aug. 12; he is expected to survive and is being flown to a military hospital in the United States.) While we have the will and the resources to fight in this context, we are effectively hamstrung because realities on the ground require measures we will always refuse — namely, the widespread use of lethal and brutal force. Given the situation, it is important not to assess security from an American-centered perspective. The ability of, say, American observers to safely walk down the streets of formerly violent towns is not a resounding indicator of security. What matters is the experience of the local citizenry and the future of our counterinsurgency. When we take this view, we see that a vast majority of Iraqis feel increasingly insecure and view us as an occupation force that has failed to produce normalcy after four years and is increasingly unlikely to do so as we continue to arm each warring side. Coupling our military strategy to an insistence that the Iraqis meet political benchmarks for reconciliation is also unhelpful. The morass in the government has fueled impatience and confusion while providing no semblance of security to average Iraqis. Leaders are far from arriving at a lasting political settlement. This should not be surprising, since a lasting political solution will not be possible while the military situation remains in constant flux. The Iraqi government is run by the main coalition partners of the Shiite-dominated United Iraqi Alliance, with Kurds as minority members. The Shiite clerical establishment formed the alliance to make sure its people did not succumb to the same mistake as in 1920: rebelling against the occupying Western force (then the British) and losing what they believed was their inherent right to rule Iraq as the majority. The qualified and reluctant welcome we received from the Shiites since the invasion has to be seen in that historical context. They saw in us something useful for the moment. Now that moment is passing, as the Shiites have achieved what they believe is rightfully theirs. Their next task is to figure out how best to consolidate the gains, because reconciliation without consolidation risks losing it all. Washington’s insistence that the Iraqis correct the three gravest mistakes we made — de-Baathification, the dismantling of the Iraqi Army and the creation of a loose federalist system of government — places us at cross purposes with the government we have committed to support. Political reconciliation in Iraq will occur, but not at our insistence or in ways that meet our benchmarks. It will happen on Iraqi terms when the reality on the battlefield is congruent with that in the political sphere. There will be no magnanimous solutions that please every party the way we expect, and there will be winners and losers. The choice we have left is to decide which side we will take. Trying to please every party in the conflict — as we do now — will only ensure we are hated by all in the long run. At the same time, the most important front in the counterinsurgency, improving basic social and economic conditions, is the one on which we have failed most miserably. Two million Iraqis are in refugee camps in bordering countries. Close to two million more are internally displaced and now fill many urban slums. Cities lack regular electricity, telephone services and sanitation. “Lucky” Iraqis live in gated communities barricaded with concrete blast walls that provide them with a sense of communal claustrophobia rather than any sense of security we would consider normal. In a lawless environment where men with guns rule the streets, engaging in the banalities of life has become a death-defying act. Four years into our occupation, we have failed on every promise, while we have substituted Baath Party tyranny with a tyranny of Islamist, militia and criminal violence. When the primary preoccupation of average Iraqis is when and how they are likely to be killed, we can hardly feel smug as we hand out care packages. As an Iraqi man told us a few days ago with deep resignation, “We need security, not free food.” In the end, we need to recognize that our presence may have released Iraqis from the grip of a tyrant, but that it has also robbed them of their self-respect. They will soon realize that the best way to regain dignity is to call us what we are — an army of occupation — and force our withdrawal. Until that happens, it would be prudent for us to increasingly let Iraqis take center stage in all matters, to come up with a nuanced policy in which we assist them from the margins but let them resolve their differences as they see fit. This suggestion is not meant to be defeatist, but rather to highlight our pursuit of incompatible policies to absurd ends without recognizing the incongruities. We need not talk about our morale. As committed soldiers, we will see this mission through. Buddhika Jayamaha is an Army specialist. Wesley D. Smith is a sergeant. Jeremy Roebuck is a sergeant. Omar Mora is a sergeant. Edward Sandmeier is a sergeant. Yance T. Gray is a staff sergeant. Jeremy A. Murphy is a staff sergeant. |
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If a tree falls in a forest and lands on a politician, even if you can't hear the tree or the screams, I'll bet you'd at least hear the applause. Paul Tindale |
Geesh! Thank you for putting out that enormous amount of money. I warned ya that to get the full article it would take some bucks. So took the easy way and added another aritlce. Did anybody read the other piece? Note, both a Republican and Democrat read from the article.
And the thread turns to $5? Perhaps somebody forgot to take their Ritalin. Have a good day!~! |
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Experienced Member |
No, I already have a NY Times Select subscription. |
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If a tree falls in a forest and lands on a politician, even if you can't hear the tree or the screams, I'll bet you'd at least hear the applause. Paul Tindale |
Again, thank you. |
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Highly Experienced Member |
Maybe you should have saved this post until someone actually bashed them. |
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I took that from SLDO's post immediately following my (the first) post. In which he was making the false assumption that I was bashing those soldiers. Of all escape mechanisms, Death is the most efficient. ~~ H.L. Mencken |
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If a tree falls in a forest and lands on a politician, even if you can't hear the tree or the screams, I'll bet you'd at least hear the applause. Paul Tindale |
Actually, that was in my initial post. It was perhaps made in haste and on assumptions; however, it usually never fails to bring out at least one basher. Mia Culpa if I have unfairly tarnished the whole for the sake of a few. Have a good day!~! |
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Thank You SGT Omar Mora and SGT Yance Gray for your Honorable and Selfless Service to our nation. REST IN PEACE AIRBORNE TROOPERS
For those of you that serve(d), we all know that "reality" is based on your "perception" of the Area of Operation (AO) you're in, or the fighting position (foxhole) you currently occupy. What you see from a defilade position (foxhole) or combat patrol(s) [AO] is not necessarily the overall picture above tactical level. "Player Truth (as Warrior sees it) verses Ground Truth (reality)." SGTs Mora and Gray had the right to voice their observations, because of their participation in the fight. Those of us that feel/felt the bite of rucksack straps on our shoulders; the impact of Parachute Landing Falls (PLF); night Air Assault insertions; sandpaper eyelids from extended operations; unfulfilled promises of resupply; deployments (foreign soil) during holidays, birthdays, anniversaries, first steps, first words; and on..., respect their views (from their AO/foxhole). Nothing more. BTW, all others (never served, sick, lame, lazy), keep your disparaging comments about my brethren to yourself, you have to earn the right. |
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Highly Experienced Member |
BUMP
TW, all others (never served, sick, lame, lazy), keep your disparaging comments about my brethren to yourself, you have to earn the right.[/QUOTE] Neocons....always willing to fight to the last drop of someone else's blood. |
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New Member |
Surely they are with God. We will pray for their souls and pray for their families. God bless all our military.
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New Member |
Well whether you agree with the administration or the soldiers should have no bearing on the fact that all our military deserve our utmost thanks and most especially prayers. I wonder though if any of the soldiers who support the administration and the surge and the war in Iraq would be given the same equal treatment by the media? I think not. Aside from that, the war in Iraq will only end when politicians from both sides of the aisle stop using our military as pawns in their quest for power. And it is up to us the American citizens to hold those politicians accountable - i would hope all of you out there would put aside your political beliefs and hold all those in DC accountable. Our government needs to untie the hands of the military, let them do their job without restrictions (the other side has no restrictions). I trust our sons and daughters to do their job. The few that abuse their position will abuse their position whether they are in the military or not. |
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What I found disgraceful, was the media has to add the fact that these warriors wrote the piece in the first place. The only story here is that fine men lost their lives while defending each other. Nothing more, nothing less. For the media to always put a spin on a story adds insult. Our prayers go out to the families and friends of these fine warriors.
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Whenever I pick up a newspaper rag or hear a self described "hero" news reporter attempt to bring discredit upon the Honorable and Selfless Service of Our Warriors, I think of President Teddy Roosevelt's words...
“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” Sadly amused by the likes of Critics such as: ole Harry Reid, Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Teddy Kennedy, Barbara Boxer, and I could go on and on..., that NEVER PUT THEIR "COLD AND TIMID SOULS" ON THE LINE (in harm's way). |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events In the News Anti-War Soldiers Killed in Accident
