RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,148302,00.html
Member
Posted Thu 06 September 2007 05:05 AM
RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,148300,00.html


So would this be concidered "The Big Show"?

Well, there was a report recently of the RCT-6 Marines and a Iraqi Army Brigade leaving Fallujia this week under the protection of the Local Iraqi Police. That was a large city with a Bigger Security Force in place that was removed.Is it a Good example of what the Iraqis are capable of?
The training wheels have to come off sometime, and the Iraqi Secuirity forces are larger now than what they were a year ago. Plus (hopefully) with our MiTT Units mmentoring them, their a much more professional force than before.
I'm not saying their perfect, but damninit, the show must go on!

Like the South Vietnamese; the Iraqis lack the motivation and the will.

We had to leave Viet Nam BEFORE the Vietnamese people could resolve their civil war and find peace.

Look at the result today where good; peace-full-filling; relations have finally resumed !

If we remove our destabilizing military presence, this could indicate the future of our relations with Iraq and throughout the Middle East.

I cannot solve my brother's problem !

STOP MISGUIDED AMERICAN EMPIRE BUILDING ! WITHDRAW FROM IRAQ !

I know this is easier sitting back and looking at it but after this lenght of time they need to suck it up and start dealing with issue themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by helez:
Like the South Vietnamese; the Iraqis lack the motivation and the will.

We had to leave Viet Nam BEFORE the Vietnamese people could resolve their civil war and find peace.

Look at the result today where good; peace-full-filling; relations have finally resumed !

If we remove our destabilizing military presence, this could indicate the future of our relations with Iraq and throughout the Middle East.

I cannot solve my brother's problem !

STOP MISGUIDED AMERICAN EMPIRE BUILDING ! WITHDRAW FROM IRAQ !

Lame argument, Helez. The parallels between Iraq and Vietnam have been beaten to death and should be retired for all their worthlessness. The South Vietnamese grew so used to the Americans doing everything for them that when it came time for them to act entirely in their own defense, they were unable to put forth more than a token resistance. The Iraqi forces have demonstrated the ability to assume their nation's defense, but their police forces are so riddled with incompetence, that ground taken by the Army cannot be held and managed by the police. Logistics will also be a big player in the transition of full control to Iraqi forces. If we have not ironed out how to supply and resupply them, the full handover of the reins to their own country may be long delayed.

quote:

Lame argument, Helez. The parallels between Iraq and Vietnam have been beaten to death and should be retired for all their worthlessness. The South Vietnamese grew so used to the Americans doing everything for them that when it came time for them to act entirely in their own defense, they were unable to put forth more than a token resistance. The Iraqi forces have demonstrated the ability to assume their nation's defense, but their police forces are so riddled with incompetence, that ground taken by the Army cannot be held and managed by the police. Logistics will also be a big player in the transition of full control to Iraqi forces. If we have not ironed out how to supply and resupply them, the full handover of the reins to their own country may be long delayed.

I don't think this is a lame argument at all. It is true that we cannot solve ultimately their hatred of one another as sectarian groups.

Now why is it that the police are corrupt? It is because of the sectarian hatred, which is in the army too by the way.

Our holding their hand suffering 1000 deaths a year with a monstrous debt accumulation IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE THEIR HEARTS.

Here is you mistake Jim. We cannot live their lives for them; we cannot make them love their neighbors as themselves. They are committed Muslims, committed to a wicked religion that sees it honorable to kill not only infidels (US soldiers) but rival groups.

They don't want peace! What is hard to understand about this? They want power! at all costs.

(QUOTE) Retired Marine Corps Gen. James Jones, who led the 20-member panel studying Iraqi security forces, was to testify before Congress on Thursday. His report, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press, said the Iraq's security forces would be unable to take control of their country in the next 18 months. (UNQUOTE)

Back in 2005 as then Lt General David Petraeus ended a year in charge of training the Iraqi security forces said that Iraq's military had made "enormous progress" and that its readiness to take over from U.S. forces was growing "with each passing week." President Bush was motivated to boast "As they [Iraqis) stand up. we'll stand down." Hooraah!

After more than one hundred and four weeks (over 2 years) since General Petraeus proclaimed Iraq's military was making "enormous progress" the Congress will be informed today (9/6/2007) Iraq's security forces would be unable to take control of their country even in the next 18 months! Whoa!

Stay tuned for an announcement of a new training time frame, albeit subject to change, when Iraqi security forces are expected to be able take control of their country. Of course, a new training time period will also require a corresponding extension of time for the ongoing Military Surge to support security while the Iraqi government continues to dawdle getting its act together.

quote:

Originally posted by JimSorber:

quote:

Originally posted by helez:
Like the South Vietnamese; the Iraqis lack the motivation and the will.

We had to leave Viet Nam BEFORE the Vietnamese people could resolve their civil war and find peace.

Look at the result today where good; peace-full-filling; relations have finally resumed !

If we remove our destabilizing military presence, this could indicate the future of our relations with Iraq and throughout the Middle East.

I cannot solve my brother's problem !

STOP MISGUIDED AMERICAN EMPIRE BUILDING ! WITHDRAW FROM IRAQ !

Lame argument, Helez. The parallels between Iraq and Vietnam have been beaten to death and should be retired for all their worthlessness. Tell that to the President. The South Vietnamese grew so used to the Americans doing everything for them that when it came time for them to act entirely in their own defense, they were unable to put forth more than a token resistance. And that is not a parallel to the current situation? The Iraqi forces have demonstrated the ability to assume their nation's defense, According to the article and report we're discussing, that simply isn't true, and won't be for some time but their police forces are so riddled with incompetence, that ground taken by the Army cannot be held and managed by the police. Again according to the article, violent religious fanatic citizens produce violent religious fanatic cops and soldiers. Logistics will also be a big player in the transition of full control to Iraqi forces. If we have not ironed out how to supply and resupply them, the full handover of the reins to their own country may be long delayed. Once more according to the article "an adequate logistics system to support these ground forces is at least two years away"

The bottom line is, we have completed our military mission. Nation-building is not in our job description. If the Iraqis truly want freedom and democracy, they need to get it the same way we did -- they need to fight for it.

"Look at the result today where good; peace-full-filling; relations have finally resumed !"

30 years later! Are you suggesting that the world endure decades more of terrorists attacks, until they finally decide to join the international community? Yeah, that'll work for sure.

"If we remove our destabilizing military presence, this could indicate the future of our relations with Iraq and throughout the Middle East."

Naive to Nth degree! Are you suggesting that the middle eats was stabile BEFORE we went in to remove a dictator who had twice invaded his neighbors? The NVA didn't send their people around the world to kill innocent people. But apparently, that little difference is lost on folks here.

"I cannot solve my brother's problem !"

Now...who was it that asked "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Cain!

"Now why is it that the police are corrupt?"

That could be asked of the New Orleans P.D.! We sit in judgement of a newborn nation, still in the throes of birth, as if they had had 200 years to refine THEIR democracy, instead of a mere 4.
Yet, look at OURS, even after those 200 years. Are OUR politicians blameless? Is OUR government dysfunctional in any way?
You expect from others what we ourselves can't remedy?
That is intellectually dishonest, but typically liberal.
Does the term "glass house" mean anything to you?

quote:

Originally posted by 03Mach1:
"Look at the result today where good; peace-full-filling; relations have finally resumed !"

30 years later! Are you suggesting that the world endure decades more of terrorists attacks, until they finally decide to join the international community? Yeah, that'll work for sure.

"If we remove our destabilizing military presence, this could indicate the future of our relations with Iraq and throughout the Middle East."

Naive to Nth degree! Are you suggesting that the middle eats was stabile BEFORE we went in to remove a dictator who had twice invaded his neighbors? The NVA didn't send their people around the world to kill innocent people. But apparently, that little difference is lost on folks here.

"I cannot solve my brother's problem !"

Now...who was it that asked "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Cain!

"Now why is it that the police are corrupt?"

That could be asked of the New Orleans P.D.! We sit in judgement of a newborn nation, still in the throes of birth, as if they had had 200 years to refine THEIR democracy, instead of a mere 4.
Yet, look at OURS, even after those 200 years. Are OUR politicians blameless? Is OUR government dysfunctional in any way?
You expect from others what we ourselves can't remedy?
That is intellectually dishonest, but typically liberal.
Does the term "glass house" mean anything to you?

How can you compare a police force of a small city to the entire country of Iraq. What happened in New Orleans is nothing like what is going on in Iraq. Are you actually making a case for the U.S. to stay in Iraq for hundreds of years until they become "stable" (although or government might want that). We did not have a foreign country "occupying" the U.S. while we figured out our situation. The tories weren't killing the americans after we beat the british in our revolutionary war unlike the Iraqi's who kill each other because they don't worship allah the same way. That's like all the catholic's in the U.S. killing Baptists because they worship god differently. There is too much inbred hatred in that culture, developed over CENTURIES, for us to change it in 1 year or even 10 years. And while we are there they WILL CONTINUE to kill us and each other. This isn't just an internal conflict either. The muslim countries surrounding Iraq continue to send fanatic rebels into Iraq to stir up unrest, which we can NEVER stop unless we invade those countries too. Get out now and let the area self-destruct then go back and offer "assisstance". That is my OPINION not a statement of fact.

quote:

How can you compare a police force of a small city to the entire country of Iraq.

New Orleans is not a "small" city and the curruption in their police force has been around almost as long as the city itself. The stae of Louisiana is renwned for it's corrupt good 'ol boy political system (Huey Long?).
Corruption in our federal government is pasted on the boob tube almost nightly.
So...if we, a superpower democracy cannot eliminate corruption in one of our "largest" cities or in our own national government, with 200 years under OUR belt, then I ask again, how can we presume to be so righteous as to judge a fledgling nation whose people have only recently (4 years) been rescued from a brutal dictator and have no previous experience at self-governance?
That's like a 20-year veteran (of any occupation) insisting that the new guy be fired because he didn't master all the tasks in his first week.
We Americans pride ourselves in being fair, to a fault, in fact (political correctness), yet most of you posting here want nothing more than to "fire the new guy" and hang him out to dry.

You honestly believe that if we abandon the middle east to it's own devices, the region will somehow stabilize itself? It hasn't happened over the last 2,000 years. The region has the bloodiest history on the planet.
If they stayed in their own backyard (like the Vietnamese did) it would be a different story. But 9-11, Madrid, London, Bali, etc. tell me they have no intention to do so.

If a rabid dog was loose in the neighborhood a few blocks away, would you wait until it was at YOUR doorstep, attacking YOUR kids before you shot it?
Not me!

quote:

If the Iraqis truly want freedom and democracy, they need to get it the same way we did -- they need to fight for it.

Don't forget...we had help!

quote:

Originally posted by 03Mach1:

quote:

How can you compare a police force of a small city to the entire country of Iraq.

New Orleans is not a "small" city and the curruption in their police force has been around almost as long as the city itself. The stae of Louisiana is renwned for it's corrupt good 'ol boy political system (Huey Long?).
Corruption in our federal government is pasted on the boob tube almost nightly.
So...if we, a superpower democracy cannot eliminate corruption in one of our "largest" cities or in our own national government, with 200 years under OUR belt, then I ask again, how can we presume to be so righteous as to judge a fledgling nation whose people have only recently (4 years) been rescued from a brutal dictator and have no previous experience at self-governance?
That's like a 20-year veteran (of any occupation) insisting that the new guy be fired because he didn't master all the tasks in his first week.
We Americans pride ourselves in being fair, to a fault, in fact (political correctness), yet most of you posting here want nothing more than to "fire the new guy" and hang him out to dry.

You honestly believe that if we abandon the middle east to it's own devices, the region will somehow stabilize itself? It hasn't happened over the last 2,000 years. The region has the bloodiest history on the planet.
If they stayed in their own backyard (like the Vietnamese did) it would be a different story. But 9-11, Madrid, London, Bali, etc. tell me they have no intention to do so.

If a rabid dog was loose in the neighborhood a few blocks away, would you wait until it was at YOUR doorstep, attacking YOUR kids before you shot it?
Not me!

Great analogies. Let me also put a few things into a perspective that most veterans on this site should understand. Following the initial victory over Saddam's military we in our infinite wisdom disbanded what was left of that military as well as the police and all government services that were performed by Baath Party members. Without the foundation provided by those experienced military, police and government employees, the reconstitution of those services has been much more difficult. How long does it take a single Soldier, Marine, police officer or civil servant to gain basic competency in their job? How much longer does it take them to become proficient enough to lead others? Now, how long do you think it would take to form and train a battalion starting from scratch, with no experienced personnel to step into the leadership positions?

As we all know, it takes many years for an NCO, Staff NCO, Company or Field grade Officer to be trained and reach a level of competency to form an effective fighting force. Any fellow law enforcement officers will back me up when I say the same is true for police. I was hired by a 400 officer department after serving in the USMC for 4 years and reaching the rank of E-5 Sergeant. It was at the 2.5 year mark that one day it suddenly dawned on me that I pretty much knew what I was doing and was confident I could handle any situation that might come my way. After 26 years I still see new situations daily and learn from the experience. I am not familiar with the methodology used to form Iraqi military and police units with inexperienced personnel, but wonder how “leaders” were chosen. Can you imagine what it would be like to report to a company right out of boot camp and discover the company 1st Sgt. only had a few months more experience than you? How long do you think it would take a unit such as this to gain basic proficiency? I would say at least 4 years for minimum qualification of personnel up to the Sgt level.

Instead of disarming the Iraqi Army it should have remained in uniform, in tact and redeployed. In disarming those Iraqi troops the US Central Command created an already trained and "orphaned" manpower pool for those groups now engaged against coalition forces and the Iraqi government.

Kevin Reynolds
Marion, Indiana

Many of you are correct in that the Iraqi's are never going to be able to defend themselves. They have neither the will, nor the desire, let alone the intelligence to realize that they need to be one people in order for this to work. They have hated each other for centuries and will not stop any time soon. They are a country of sheep, followers, those that need a single leader for anything at all to happen. They cannot come together in any sort of government fashion and expect to achieve anything good for all. This is a country of backward thinking, living people, they will never be anything that our government wishes, the sooner we realize this the better off we will be. I have been there, I have seen these folks (Iraqi's) function on a daily basis, they don't know much about progressing through time, thay are happy living the way they did 1000 years ago, so be it, let them do this. We have no more business in this country, we cannot help those who cannot or will not help themselves. Do I really care what happens to them if and when we leave?, not really, I know that the terrorism will not stop if we leave, so be ready for that, all of you who are unaware by nature. They do not like us or anyone who does not live like the koran says we should, get used to it, it will not change. But, we can stop wasting our resources and soldiers to a worthless cause, it is time to cut the apron strings and come what may.