RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,148158,00.html

Scrap the Iraqi National Police? ok, didn't we try this once before by disbanding the Iraqi Army?

Pulling full Units off line and re-training, and possibly putting a new commander incharge would be more expediant for our and their needs (And also a Investigative Body that kept an eye/ and recieved and reported complaints of each Unit to higher command, and then "actual" displinary proceedures were put in place). would probably more benifitial to the build up of Iraq's Security Forces.
Accountability really needs to be pushed. Where as corruption and secretairian violence committed by Security Forces are upheld to the highest degree. And Displined accordingly.
Look, I want our troops out of there just as fast as the next person, but, I don't want us leaving a huge mess, and then having to deal with it 5-10 years down the road...again.
The Iraqi Security Forces are our troops ticket out of there, and what ever it takes to get them up and running independantly & justly for all Iraqi citizens needs to be a top priority.
Every 3 months, Police Units should be pulled off line and go thru a 2 week professional training program (kind of a reminder coarse)in Proper policing, Rules of Law, Humanitarian, accountability, coarses. Iraq probably has never really had a "Professional" Police force..so this is really all new to them.

RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,148158,00.html

In most of the news I have read about the Iraqi Police Force, I have never quite felt that their mission is defined. Are they in place to defend their entire nation from outside attacks and internal terrorist onslaughts or are they there to stop petty crimes, assess parking fines, arrest the criminal elements and serve as public safety officers during crises and other events? If we look at police forces here at home, the individual officers are all pretty much alike in that they serve their community and are all working toward the common goal of peace and harmony within their assigned areas. In Iraq, where perpetual adversaries have been thrust into "getting along", they too have the same goals, but unfortunately share the same vision -- which would appear to be the complete anihilation of the other side and dictatorial rule as was pretty much all they know after 30+ years of Saddam Hussein. While the efforts to date have been extraordinary, they need to take the next step and start policing themselves and refine their forces into the elite teams needed to get the job done. If anyone has explained to the Iraqi citizens that if they want to be a free and soveriegn nation they need to pony up and take over, it seems as if the message did not resonate. This foolishness will continue as long as Uncle Sam is in the picture. While we can't just walk away or stand by and watch all of our efforts go to waste, Iraqis need to be put on notice that they are running out of time and that their window of oportunity to establish themselves as a functional autonomous government is starting to close. (Of course, who are we to tell them anything -- like we can do better?)

Much like trying to close the barn door after the horses have already escaped. Training and retraining goals for the Iraqi National Police should have been established early on in the war. The need for internal affairs units within the structure of the police is a bygone conclusion at this point. One must ask why these objectives were not clearly laid out when the police units were being reformed.

here is a excellent article on How it should work...

http://fightin6thmarines.vox.com/library/post/iraqi-arm...s-from-fallujah.html

It's worth the read, and the excellent work the Marines have accomplished in Anabar/ Fallujah

Semper Fi

From top to bottom this whole country is screwed up; mostly due to religion. The problem is not training these people. The problem is the prolific sectarian violence that takes place on a daily basis and no amount of training will ever change a persons religious beliefs. It will only make them more efficient at killing each other.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/04/the_skinny/main3230210.shtml

Currently in the news is the original 'great reformation'. The work of Cheney and Rumsfelt and approved by the President, according to the Brits, the bust-up of Iraqi security forces was a fiasco which led to the past three years of violence.

Rumsfelt's gone butthe Pres and Cheney are still in their seats. I wouldn't be surprised they've learned no lesson from the other mess and we're about to see history repeat itself.

"An independent commission established by Congress to study Iraq's security forces will recommend starting over and reshaping the troubled 25,000-member police organization with a more elite force, a defense official said Friday. He said the report was more positive about progress being made by the Iraqi army."

This report, was it proposed by this Congress or by the Repub control Congress that been voted out of office? if by either, this is suppose to help how? Apparently this Admin has learned nothing from past mistakes by disbanding the Iraqi Army which by the way the Pres claimed to have no recollection of. I think this President have no intention of leaving Iraq, now or in the future, that became apparent when he said "after I leave office I will give speaches to refill my coffers". At some point our forces will have to fight this 25,000 member police force, of course they will be called "terrorist" or something like that. Getting this Country bogg down in a quagmire while he "refill his coffers" Isn't that something? Hopefully the next President will have the smarts to get us out of this mess and back on track.

I was in Iraq in 2006 and worked alongside local police (IP) and Nat'l Police (INP) on several occasions.

The INP are governed by the Iraq Ministry of the Interior (MoI), which is dominated by Shi'ite sympathizers of al-Sadr. The INP are rife with members of the Mahdi Army and pretty much do their own thing. They consider themselves a pseudo-Army.

The IP are also mostly Shi'ia, but to a far less extent than the INP. They are more locally-oriented and conduct the "beat cop" and routine law enforcement tasks of police work.

That being said, completely disbanding them and trying again is out of the question. There simply is no time for that. This was not done properly from the get-go and now we're in a bad situation with them.

I never worked with Iraqi Army units, but I've been told by those who have that they are much more professional and competent than INP units are.

However, a democracy doesn't need an Army. They do, however, need an active and professional police force.

What they have right now are little better than thugs in uniform.

Nepotism and corruption are endemic to their ranks. Problem is that nepotism and corruption are endemic to Arabs in general. Training them otherwise would be like trying to get American cops to stop speaking English on the job. It really is that ingrained into them that, with a badge and gun, you can pretty much do whatever you like.

I've been on searches with them where I'd see them take something from the house... not evidence or contraband, mind you... just something bright and shiny that they liked. And the locals would not protest. They knew if they did, the INP's would come back after we'd left and take care of them.

That being said, there is a way we can make it work (basically forcing the MoI to take in many more Sunnis into their ranks and officer corps), but it still will not be what we envision it to be.

We set the goal of creating a "little America" in the Middle East. Problem is that it just is not possible.

I'll comment on this situation only because our son, a Marine is currently involved with this problem.

A contingent of Marines, including our son, were sent to an area in Anbar, a local police outpost. They had orders to have all of the police assigned to this outpost report. When everyone arrived, they were all detained and then vetted...it took four days. Of the group of police, more than twenty were hauled away in restraints for suspected activity...like killing Sunni (nearly all of the police were Shiia). The two groups basically functioned apart from each other, no cooperation at all. By the time they were done, the number of policemen left numbered about 30...all Sunni. Shortly thereafter, about 50 or 60 NEW policemen arrived on the scene...all had been previously trained by our sons detachment and all were Sunni from the area. When the word got out, the Sunni population were dancing in the streets around the outpost and everyone was all smiles...and greatfully thanking the Marines. Since the change, no dead Sunni being found around the AO. Our sons unit is now permanently stationed with the Iraqi police.

S/F Gordon

quote:

Originally posted by uh34d:
I'll comment on this situation only because our son, a Marine is currently involved with this problem.

A contingent of Marines, including our son, were sent to an area in Anbar, a local police outpost. They had orders to have all of the police assigned to this outpost report. When everyone arrived, they were all detained and then vetted...it took four days. Of the group of police, more than twenty were hauled away in restraints for suspected activity...like killing Sunni (nearly all of the police were Shiia). The two groups basically functioned apart from each other, no cooperation at all. By the time they were done, the number of policemen left numbered about 30...all Sunni. Shortly thereafter, about 50 or 60 NEW policemen arrived on the scene...all had been previously trained by our sons detachment and all were Sunni from the area. When the word got out, the Sunni population were dancing in the streets around the outpost and everyone was all smiles...and greatfully thanking the Marines. Since the change, no dead Sunni being found around the AO. Our sons unit is now permanently stationed with the Iraqi police.

S/F Gordon

Way to go Marines!

Also, what about all the police being professionally trained by our allies such as Jordan? Are they just as bad?

Sounds to me like the Mexican police force.

It will never happen.

Having recently returned from Iraq where our company trained local Iraqi Police officers I feel there needs to be a distinction between National Police and Local Police. Even our local police made statements against the National police and did not like them. There is a difference.
Considering what the police were used for in the Saddam era the current police have made some progress. definately not to our standards of policing and may never be but, where I was in Mosul, they are doing better. They went from not coming out of the stations and just collecting a pay check to using intelligence and stopping large scale attacks on U.S. forces. They were taking serious casualties fighting the insurgency while at the same time trying to be "Police" and enforcing standard law.
Corruption did exist in the form of taking extra money, aquiring fuel for their vehicles, and even hiring fellow friends and tribesmen. We suspected some insurgency involvement but were not able to prove anything. except for the insurgency piece it sounds a lot like western police now, accepting discount for food or services, hiring buddies or relatives, and taking cash for "Not issueing a ticket" as I have heard in some states. We need to remember where we came from not too long ago. Where police districts in early New York, Chicago, etc. were full of corruption and basically gangs with badges themselves. And how long did that last?? Some may argue it still happens today.
It is our responsibility to rebuild what we tore down. It is working, they are learning what right is like but it is taking time. As much as we all want out of there we can not afford to cut and run. Not only would we be asking the insurgency to follow us back to our own land and bring the fight here, we would be setting up the Iraqi people for the slaughter. Hate them as some of you might, what would ensue on the heels of our departure would be inhuman and can not be allowed to happen.
The National Police I have not had experiences with but the local police of the Ninewah Provience were stepping up and becoming a force for the Iraqi people.

quote:

Originally posted by uh34d:
I'll comment on this situation only because our son, a Marine is currently involved with this problem.

A contingent of Marines, including our son, were sent to an area in Anbar, a local police outpost. They had orders to have all of the police assigned to this outpost report. When everyone arrived, they were all detained and then vetted...it took four days. Of the group of police, more than twenty were hauled away in restraints for suspected activity...like killing Sunni (nearly all of the police were Shiia). The two groups basically functioned apart from each other, no cooperation at all. By the time they were done, the number of policemen left numbered about 30...all Sunni. Shortly thereafter, about 50 or 60 NEW policemen arrived on the scene...all had been previously trained by our sons detachment and all were Sunni from the area. When the word got out, the Sunni population were dancing in the streets around the outpost and everyone was all smiles...and greatfully thanking the Marines. Since the change, no dead Sunni being found around the AO. Our sons unit is now permanently stationed with the Iraqi police.

That’s great work, and indeed any good news is good to hear. But ... seems that the issue was just still that the Shia's were killing the Sunni's and all that happened was that the are just got even more separated by sectarian lines with each area, locale, suburb, town, region having the majority religion owning that police detachment, while across the city the other religion's religion has their own police detachment ... neither of whom work, talk, or coordinate at all?

SgtSchaeffersMom:

I cannot answer the question as our son made no mention about previous police and where they were trained. But things we so bad there when they arrived, some of the Sunni policemen admitted they were just about ready to kill some of the Shiia cops.

The telephone calls are short and naturally he has to be careful about what he says on the phone. As an aside, I'll tell a little story I found interesting.

The last call we received from our son was clear as a bell...like he was just down the street. His previous calls had been through satellite relay phones and we sometimes got cut off or the reception was minimal. I mentioned this to him and he tells me, the call he is making was going through an Iraqi telephone company, on an Iraqi phone and was being payed for by the Iraqi's! So, I guess the Iraqi phone system is up an running okay and he could have basically talked for as long as he wanted. We did chat for about 15 minutes but he had to hang up because a few more Marines wanted to make their calls on the same phone and they can call anytime they like to boot! So we hear from him every few days now instead of maybe once a week to ten days...what a deal!

S/F Gordon
_______________________________________________
Posted Wed 05 September 2007 11:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by uh34d:
I'll comment on this situation only because our son, a Marine is currently involved with this problem.

A contingent of Marines, including our son, were sent to an area in Anbar, a local police outpost. They had orders to have all of the police assigned to this outpost report. When everyone arrived, they were all detained and then vetted...it took four days. Of the group of police, more than twenty were hauled away in restraints for suspected activity...like killing Sunni (nearly all of the police were Shiia). The two groups basically functioned apart from each other, no cooperation at all. By the time they were done, the number of policemen left numbered about 30...all Sunni. Shortly thereafter, about 50 or 60 NEW policemen arrived on the scene...all had been previously trained by our sons detachment and all were Sunni from the area. When the word got out, the Sunni population were dancing in the streets around the outpost and everyone was all smiles...and greatfully thanking the Marines. Since the change, no dead Sunni being found around the AO. Our sons unit is now permanently stationed with the Iraqi police.

S/F Gordon


Way to go Marines!

Also, what about all the police being professionally trained by our allies such as Jordan? Are they just as bad?