please iraq enemies stop hattackin iraq government and let them make what is good for iraq future all that people always their a bregin misunderstandin in iraq it is that people they no love to see iraq or america and arab world achieve good thing for the future but i george mahamadans hope that they will get what they need by the great of almighty god allah

Do you think "AM General" wants to insure their contract with the government, for a vehicle which is clearly having difficulty, accomplishing a mission it was not designed to accomplish.
This is the same scenario as the M-151A1 and the older model armored car...the jeep didn't cut it, so they got something that would. By the time the humvee is capabale of 'defeating' IED's and EFP's, it will be more like an ABRAMS or a Bradley. How has the Bradley faired against these roadside obstacles? I don't recall hearing anything about their survivability.
Morning World, coffee time!!!
Sergeant Major

quote:

Originally posted by mahamadouabdoulahi:
please iraq enemies stop hattackin iraq government and let them make what is good for iraq future all that people always their a bregin misunderstandin in iraq it is that people they no love to see iraq or america and arab world achieve good thing for the future but i george mahamadans hope that they will get what they need by the great of almighty god allah

I agree with you young man. The ONLY One who can really fix this schiest storm is The One Creator...it doesn't matter what you call Him, He's the same cat-daddy.
Sergeant Major

Let these contractor who are building these safety devises go over to iraq and test drive them for a while and prove out there product. If they work and the contractors don't get hurt/killed---buy some.

HUMVEE TO GET ARMOR......

Aloha, Armoring the Humvee, well that means the
body counts from mines and various sundries that
go boom, is making lots of people nervous. Not
cause the count is going up, cause the next of
kin might decide to sue their individual and
collective ***'s. Through out all this, the big
equalizer has been CERAMIC ARMOR. OR did I miss
something and Ceramic Armor is just so much
crockery. Seems to me, the brits covered their
MBT's with CHOBHAM ARMOR and it was supposed to
neutralize the shape charge, and effectively
protect the crews manning the MBT. Now we are
going to armor the HUMMER and make it higher
and slower and bigger on the inside. The Humvee
already has the inside of an AMC Pacer, it's like driving your father's den. Some where along
the line, we have ignored the lessons already
learned and somebody is not listening.
The Rhodesians, and the South Africans, developed the Personnel Carrier they called the
"Buffalo" It was nose bleed high, and had a
V Bottom with tires filled with foam. Some of
them even had articulated steering. Is this
Armoring of the HUMVEE another experiment???
Will the soldiers and marines end up using bags
of cement on the floor to keep out the blast
and shrapnel and when the HUMVEE GOES UP, IT
COMES BACK DOWN, JUST LIKE A CAT, ON IT'S PINS.
All this add on stuff makes me nervous, next
thing you know guys are going to be victims of
their own armor cause the attachments went
airborne during a blast and it became shrapnel
of the "We Thought it would help" Kind.
They keep adapting the HUMVEE, they are going
to put in an UP Button, and turn it into a
HIND-D, Oh they make those already, don't they.
Why are they taking the Great Circle Route to
find a solution???

quote:

Originally posted by JM5555:
Let these contractor who are building these safety devises go over to iraq and test drive them for a while and prove out there product. If they work and the contractors don't get hurt/killed---buy some.

That is the best approach to contractors I love it.

quote:

Originally posted by JM5555:
Let these contractor who are building these safety devises go over to iraq and test drive them for a while and prove out there product. If they work and the contractors don't get hurt/killed---buy some.

quote:

and the older model armored car...the jeep didn't cut it,

The "jeep" was never an armored vehicle. It was a replacement for the horse. The jeep helped win WW2 because it was lightweight and plentiful. It was intended to let the soldier get around. It was never intended as protection.
I favor a different approach....lighter, faster 2 or 3 man vehicles (with shaped armour) sent out en masse (a dozen or so at a time)to swarm the into patrol area ahead of the troop convoy and overwhelm the enemy's ambush plans.
This would make the task of setting IED's more difficult, because they'd have to set a lot more and would not know which one to detonate. Additionally, a single IED wouldn't claim as many casualties.
Speed and mobility are far better than lumbering around.
A swarm of killer bees is far more difficult to fight than a couple bumble bees.

quote:

Originally posted by JM5555:
Let these contractor who are building these safety devises go over to iraq and test drive them for a while and prove out there product. If they work and the contractors don't get hurt/killed---buy some.

Good idea but the only people who test our equipment out is the soldier with the boots on the ground!!!!And thats too bad

quote:

It was a replacement for the horse.

hehehehehe

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,145584,00.html

Maybe that hybrid 'open concept' is a better idea. Blast, bullets, RPG's will just go right through, without exploding, or bouncing around inside. That, and driving real fast, might do the trick.

I have no experience with IEDs so am kind of dumb about them, How are they set off ?

Land mines have been around a good long time why is it this great military industrial might remains a step behind the bad guy in modern war. I'm thinking this constant threat to our fighting ground forces should have been made less lethal or even solved in these modern times we can make our planes go faster and even make them invisible but we can't come up with a solution that would provide real and hard protection to the soldier traveling the grounds of war.. In my opinion A mericas war vehicles must be given as high a priority in research and development as any plane!!!!! It's time to take two giant steps ahead so that our foot soldiers can arrive to fight in one piece....

We are now decades into Middle East operations. I don't know how many of you out there realize this or have first or second hand knowledge of those operations, but they have occurred and have met similar challenges. Sadly, those assigned to oversee research and development and strategic planning have failed to respond to the larger picture that has become more and more clear in the past six years.

This problem we have acquiring appropriate armor for the task is but one example of the overall problem. Whether caused by legislative attempts to restrict cost or by the incursion of corporate interests into our defense structure is not important. What is important however, is that we recognize the deficiency and take action to correct the problem.

This is not a political issue that sees one party or the other outshining the other. Instead, both are equally to blame for having failed to oversee this important aspect of defense.

Proper leadership and the willing support of the nation will solve this problem. That being said, I find it important to also suggest that those leaders or organizations who have in the past failed in this area are out of the question when considering future leadership. Those who would hold onto their positions despite poor performance are no less than a burden.

Once we have resolved this leadership crisis further corrections may be made, ones that will have a long lasting positive result.

This is all good but I wonder if it's only our American big DoD contracts with other American companies that have snubbed Israel's RAFAEL anti-RPG Trophy system as Rayethon will be putting out something similarat a higher price BUT may not be finished until 2010-2012.

Israel,according to my daughter( and others) who is a Samal( Lt) in the IDF already utilized this system in the shortened war vs Hizbollah in Lebanon last summer.

* Note: Sheesh, that Fox reporter drives me nuts but the story content is pretty good. I think there's a downloadable version on google also.*

www.defensereview.com/stories/trophy/040606_fr_tobin_300.swf

quote:

Originally posted by GEMINIDAWG:
Land mines have been around a good long time why is it this great military industrial might remains a step behind the bad guy in modern war. I'm thinking this constant threat to our fighting ground forces should have been made less lethal or even solved in these modern times we can make our planes go faster and even make them invisible but we can't come up with a solution that would provide real and hard protection to the soldier traveling the grounds of war.. In my opinion A mericas war vehicles must be given as high a priority in research and development ...

Read Col. MacGregor's "Fire the Generals!": no improvements made on field vehicles after Gulf War No. 1.

Humvee: art. reads "primary utility vehicle," not combat vehicle. Are there no combat vehicles? Are these patrols where IED lurk not considered combat, per se? Armor or no, sounds like flag O's & Pentagonorrheal auditors are doing lotsa fancy stepping to avoid spending money on troops.

^ ok first off Israel is our alley get used to it. yes there are combat vehicles...its called the Humvee.there was armor on the first one and its still being improved...why? you may ask...because its impossible to build something that will be able to stand up to threats 10 years into the future.

ok, some of you people seem confused about IED's...its not superior tech and it does not take a lot of thinking power to realize that if you pack in more explosives into or around a mine you get a bigger boom. if you add a soft, easily melted, metal like copper you get something that is so hot it can cut clear through solid cooler metal, no matter how much you have.

so how they "stay ahead" of our tech is basically they start with 5 lbs of HE and add a few copper pipes and another 10 lbs of HE making it more effective. its not rocket science.

its hard to make a light weight vehicle that will have enough armor to stand up to 100+ lbs of HE especially when the majority of IED's
(key word meaning improvised)are simple "step on the fire cracker and make the bigger stuff go boom" designs. you cannot have lightweight fast maneuverable, heavily armored vehicles without increasing the engine mass, transportation, fuel consumption and all the other nasties that appear.

in short NO ONE WILL EVER BE ABLE TO MAKE A VEHICLE THAT WILL STAND UP TO A DEVICE THAT CAN BE INFINITELY ADDED TO.

we have to make do with what we have sometimes. does that mean stop trying to improve? NO it means get used to it because this is how we have to play without altering the rules of gravity or physics.

I don't like that answer, but thats what it is.

be nice if they could perfect a type hover craft equipment with explosive locating devices that could take the lead---far out thought...

Armored jeeps and trucks were the creation of Colonel Joe Bellino 54th trans Battalion.
Failure to protect his convoys in Vietnam. Go to this site and scroll down to Vietnam. Nothing new here just more of the same equipment doing the wrong duty for which it was supplied. The Humvee, M16A1 and MREs all bad choices. The same suppliers still selling the military the same inferior equipment. Yes your right Sargent Major a chopped down version of the Bradley another disaster.
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:0qBA8EcVZOgJ:www.l...=us&client=firefox-a

What happens in future wars. Will these vehicle be capable. Let's say we have a conventional war with china. Will these big heavy vehicles be manuverable? Will they get bogged down in the mud?