RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,138277,00.html

An area of investigation might also be by whom Pinnacle owned and what, if any, connections with the Pentatgon, or current officers or senior civilians current or previous, exist.

Why is NBC involved...They are not a testing agency...

There is no complexity here...the military has tests labs for this specific reason...establish a realistic test plan calling for a series of side by side tests...have them monitored by a number of appropriate test personnel and observers...document the results and make a decision...

Yea! Another round of investigations, waste more money the Army doesn't have, Yea, HOORAH. NBC has loads of experience testing and evaluating...stuff... I mean they do those car crash safety reports, I am sure that we should trust their judgement over the Army's Test and Evaluation dudes, who's sole job is to TEST and EVALUATE. Here is a question, how many more interceptor vests could have been bought for the troops with all the money they have spent testing and retesting and investigating. I just praise God that our troops get vests, its better than our previous conflicts.

It may be prudent to be a little skeptical about these tests.

"The former director of test and evaluation at the Pentagon during the Clinton administration"
I wonder what his agenda is?

"after being confronted with conflicting information by lawmakers who questioned the NBC test results and provided Army-supplied data of vest failures from a May 2006 test, Coyle backed away from his staunch defense of Dragon Skin."

I was trying to remember, Was it NBC that put explosives in a gas tank to do crash tests to test the vulnerability of the gas tank exploding in a crash.

That leaves in in a real quandary as to who to believe. I am puzzled. LOL

Should have had Fox news do the story.

quote:

I was trying to remember, Was it NBC that put explosives in a gas tank to do crash tests to test the vulnerability of the gas tank exploding in a crash.

I remember that as well but like you cant remember which news agency ...

quote:

Originally posted by AMS1tinksworld:
Why is NBC involved...They are not a testing agency...

There is no complexity here...the military has tests labs for this specific reason...establish a realistic test plan calling for a series of side by side tests...have them monitored by a number of appropriate test personnel and observers...document the results and make a decision...

I want to agree with you,....but. Your rational comments fade however in this irrational world where decisions are made for irrational reasons. Costs being one. If the dragon skin is marginally better, the Army may still not want to accept it because of the cost of replacing all the body armor already out in the field. Don't believe it? Reflect back on the outset of this Iraqi invasion. Contrary to advise of top officers, they went in under-manned and ill prepared for the events that followed. They did it in the cheap! I am afraid that it all comes down to a cost-benefit snalysis, even when it means lives of out troops.
I want the best for our troops and am glad that this came out into the light of day. Get these apothetic SOBs off their collective butts, all of them, and do the proper testing and development and make the decisions based on troop protection. Thats the least that I can expect for my son, and yours.
Jareddad

Dateline's report on Nov. 17 1992 had the exploding trucks fake.

How much can we trust NBC?

We really can't trust any of the media outlets. They create "news" when nothing is there. From touting polls showing whatever their storyline is to running ('fake') testing procedures they make news out of their own creations. I seem to recall that this was a "scandal" just a few short weeks, or was it minutes, ago. Now we learn that, well, the testing wasn't really all that after all.
The media is just so full of s4!7 and themselves how can we trust them on anything but the weather that we can verify in our own neighborhoods.

I have seen way too many sunups and sundowns to believe anything the government says as being factual. They have proven time and again to be unreliable and unbelievably slow in determining anything. Both politicians and contractors are driven by money which has a tendency to cloud the issue and keeps taxpayers from getting at the real, unadulterated truth. Putting a prototype out for the combat troops to try is perhaps the most efficient way of proving battlefield efficiency. Unfortunately the way the system is set up, it takes years for a politician and a General to pass muster on new equipment before a PFC sees anything. What makes this issue even more complex is that you now have a news organization getting involved with the testing of combat gear and accusing the military of being skewed in their evaluation. Really? This is a little like the pot calling the kettle black. News organizations are notorious for manipulating the presentation of the "news".

I love it when the military brass test a piece of equipment for 4 or 5 years before declaring it fit or unfit for battle. Perhaps they should just ship a weapon to the cz and let the troops test it for a week or two. They either use it or they don't.

And you actually believe that big brass doesnt dip their hand into those reports, contracts and procurements? I wouldnt be suprised to find out some high level officer suddently retiring and taking a job working for their competitors.

Smells like the Air Force Tanker deal to me.

quote:

Originally posted by AMS1tinksworld:
Why is NBC involved...They are not a testing agency...

There is no complexity here...the military has tests labs for this specific reason...establish a realistic test plan calling for a series of side by side tests...have them monitored by a number of appropriate test personnel and observers...document the results and make a decision...

quote:

Originally posted by SP5Long:
RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,138277,00.html

An area of investigation might also be by whom Pinnacle owned and what, if any, connections with the Pentatgon, or current officers or senior civilians current or previous, exist.

Welcome Gary, and thank you for serving!

Salute!!!!!!

Even the expert couldn't agree with himslef. It was better, but not ready for "priime time." On two or three occassions he contradicted himself. Sheesh!


Semper Fi!

Many branches but one brotherhood!

Put the President of both companies in their vest and get a excellent squad of Army rifleman and let them shoot at the Vest the two men are wearing and than we will find out who is lying.

quote:

Originally posted by 0Crystal0:
And you actually believe that big brass doesnt dip their hand into those reports, contracts and procurements? I wouldnt be suprised to find out some high level officer suddently retiring and taking a job working for their competitors.

Smells like the Air Force Tanker deal to me.

quote:

Originally posted by AMS1tinksworld:
Why is NBC involved...They are not a testing agency...

There is no complexity here...the military has tests labs for this specific reason...establish a realistic test plan calling for a series of side by side tests...have them monitored by a number of appropriate test personnel and observers...document the results and make a decision...

quote:

Originally posted by AMS1tinksworld:
Why is NBC involved...They are not a testing agency...

There is no complexity here...the military has tests labs for this specific reason...establish a realistic test plan calling for a series of side by side tests...have them monitored by a number of appropriate test personnel and observers...document the results and make a decision...

Mornin Tinks, et al.

There has been strong suspicions that the Army "flavored" their tests with slanted data. However, to think that NBC is ever going to come down on the side of our troopers is a real reach!

Many branches but one brotherhood!

I have to say that the replacement costs and loss of prestige will keep the dragonskin from being fielded. That is a judgement call based on familiarity with the initiative to replace existing MILES II training systems.

As to which is best and whose tests are more reliable....The cost of testing this is simple. I suspect all vests used to test were chosen by Dragon and Interceptor respectively. If not each directly then the BATCH the test ones were from was. That slant is likely equal on both agencies. Who owns stock in what company is likely a factor at some level, either directly or "by friends and acquaintences." review our Bradley Fighting Veehicle program's true history if you doubt that.

The soldier is the end user here. Everyone who dies wearing one of either is likely to have friends and family accusing of failure. NO system will be perfect. Concept then: We got plenty of ammo (confiscated) that is likely to be experienced. We have plenty of weapons to fire. We also have the direct observation of potential wearers. I am VERY certain that they will, given the chance, provide as many shoot scenarios as any "Lab" can. We ARE very creative! Including what kinda shock a Humanlike surface receives even when the system succeeds. THEY send free vests and WE give em what WE expect to receive. It will be Our Lives on the line after all AND we know best what is likely to occur. NO SYSTEM WORKS EVERYWHERE. Investing in technology with a 20 year , any environment approach is ludicrous. I want it to keep me alive for the length of my deployment.

I agree by the way. Have A SEPERATE news agency record the event but let soldiers write the reports.

how this got this far is beyond me.

- take a uber-cool named armor that weighs 30 lbs more than current stuff, shoot some rounds STRAIGHT at it and put it on NBC/History channel as a super duper- almost free marketing campaign.
then when it turns out your overly heavy, untested vest gets rejected, you whine (to the news again) which brings in the anti-bush crowd to say "bush hates the troops" "why wont the .gov protect our babies" "global warming is caused by old army flak vests, but not Dragon skin..." etc. etc..

quote:

Originally posted by 11664918:

quote:

Originally posted by AMS1tinksworld:
Why is NBC involved...They are not a testing agency...

There is no complexity here...the military has tests labs for this specific reason...establish a realistic test plan calling for a series of side by side tests...have them monitored by a number of appropriate test personnel and observers...document the results and make a decision...

I want to agree with you,....but. Your rational comments fade however in this irrational world where decisions are made for irrational reasons. Costs being one. If the dragon skin is marginally better, the Army may still not want to accept it because of the cost of replacing all the body armor already out in the field. Don't believe it? Reflect back on the outset of this Iraqi invasion. Contrary to advise of top officers, they went in under-manned and ill prepared for the events that followed. They did it in the cheap! I am afraid that it all comes down to a cost-benefit snalysis, even when it means lives of out troops.
I want the best for our troops and am glad that this came out into the light of day. Get these apothetic SOBs off their collective butts, all of them, and do the proper testing and development and make the decisions based on troop protection. Thats the least that I can expect for my son, and yours.
Jareddad

No argument from me!!!

quote:

Originally posted by bbeckerusa:
Dateline's report on Nov. 17 1992 had the exploding trucks fake.

How much can we trust NBC?

This is without anger , just a considered response.
As much as we can trust a CMD climate that said in 2003 that we had enough combat power to proceed in Iraq. They are both about 1/2 right. In this case you aren't "maybe" gonna lose when they're wrong.

We serve a system but why is the system CYA?

quote:

Originally posted by MTCRetired:

quote:

Originally posted by AMS1tinksworld:
Why is NBC involved...They are not a testing agency...

There is no complexity here...the military has tests labs for this specific reason...establish a realistic test plan calling for a series of side by side tests...have them monitored by a number of appropriate test personnel and observers...document the results and make a decision...

Mornin Tinks, et al.

There has been strong suspicions that the Army "flavored" their tests with slanted data. However, to think that NBC is ever going to come down on the side of our troopers is a real reach!

Many branches but one brotherhood!

Morning Chief...

THat is not a surprise to me.. I have been involved in meetings where certain government contractors have "SLANTED" the test data in their favour...and continued to use the data as factual even after being called on it and shown data to the contrary...has to do with power and money...

quote:

We serve a system but why is the system CYA?

Tis the way of the world...